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| PTC and Mainline Steam https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=45784 |
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| Author: | Cody Muse [ Mon Aug 09, 2021 5:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | PTC and Mainline Steam |
So with 4014 running with PTC, how long does everyone think it will be until it’s a requirement for all steam locomotives that touch a mainline equipped with PTC? When visiting in North Platte, you can see the PTC screen right next the the engineer seat (with a screen facing the conductor behind). I would guess it is all running off the SD70 in the consist, perhaps the parameters have been set to know how far ahead the train is? Are groups holding out to see what the FRA requires? Cody |
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| Author: | Dave [ Mon Aug 09, 2021 5:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: PTC and Mainline Steam |
It is my hope that we will face the issue of having enough mainline steam going on that it really becomes a problem. |
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| Author: | nathansixchime [ Mon Aug 09, 2021 8:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: PTC and Mainline Steam |
There is no expectation among the mainline steam community for any sort of overall exemption from being PTC compliant. Even if you could get a waiver, it is highly unlikely you'd find a host railroad willing to accept it, not when they themselves have spent millions of dollars on implementing it. The LEAP installation on 4014 has been under development for many years by some smart individuals who finally had a test-bed opportunity in Union Pacific to put their program to work and only recently did the FRA give the adaptation their blessing. As of yet, there's no reason to believe it won't eventually be a solution that can be adopted throughout the industry, if there is host railroad support for PTC compliant steam operations that warrants the time and investment. |
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| Author: | CA1 [ Mon Aug 09, 2021 8:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: PTC and Mainline Steam |
Has there been a clear explanation on how the 4014 system works? Is a diesel required for the system? Looking back at the 21st century trips with 765 and 611, a good many were without diesel. |
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| Author: | co614 [ Mon Aug 09, 2021 8:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: PTC and Mainline Steam |
As Kelly reports some very capable folks in the steam community have been working on this for a while. There is every indication that a practical. affordable solution will be available to allow for mainline steam to be PTC compliant. At some reasonable time all the mechanical/electrical details will I'm sure be published for all to digest. In the interim rest easy knowing the challenge is well on its way towards being addressed. Ross Rowland |
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| Author: | nathansixchime [ Mon Aug 09, 2021 8:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: PTC and Mainline Steam |
In theory, you can absolutely put all the PTC equipment onto the steam locomotive and tool car and modify it accordingly. But in practice, it raises an assortment of cumbersome issues for a non-profit organization to take on: - who hosts and pays for the PTC software? - who maintains and pays for the back-office server? - how do you pay the annual licenses and renewal for software - who pays for the separate liability insurance for your PTC program? Therefore the benefit of this program is that you're able to "plug and play" with a host railroad's diesel and their pre-existing system. You're making the steam locomotive an extension of the PTC-equipped diesel without substantial changes to either locomotive and without the costly and onerous overhead of the PTC system and software itself. I'll leave the particulars to the system's designers and engineers and folks more deeply involved as it is their baby and it's still in beta, but it has the FRA's blessing, and 4015 looks to be a permanent "mate" for 4014. I would expect some sort of official messaging on this once enough time and data has been collected. The outlying questions for the rest of mainline steam are whether the system can be eventually streamlined enough to plug and play with any other PTC-equipped road locomotive and a host railroad's network – and whether they have the time or interest at the corporate, motive power, help desk and administrative levels to deal with it. So, it's the same old "do we want to host a steam locomotive?" just turned up to 11. Here's hoping Moore's Law has more to say than Murphy's. |
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| Author: | PCook [ Tue Aug 10, 2021 5:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: PTC and Mainline Steam |
PTC hardware and its installation costs cover a wide range to put on a diesel, with the highest cost installations being the units that have the most difficult space problems to accommodate the equipment. End cab switcher installations are particularly expensive. PC |
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| Author: | ATK [ Thu Aug 12, 2021 3:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: PTC and Mainline Steam |
This is an excellent thread! Looking forward to reading about some of the technical details of the LEAP system. |
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| Author: | jrevans [ Thu Aug 12, 2021 4:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: PTC and Mainline Steam |
"That Steam Guy" (Jason S) pasted an interesting video from the cab of the 4014. https://fb.watch/7ldWJWub7w/ Quote: Have a look at the simplistic installation of a PTC head unit in the cab, making the 4-8-8-4 #4014 the first PTC compliant locomotive in the United States. While others attempt to achieve waivers and exceptions, the professionals of the Union Pacific Heritage Fleet opted to choose compliance. Proving it can easily be done.
That Steam Guy's Next Generation Rail Solutions has had an effective plan in place for the application of PTC onto a steam locomotive (including power cut off) for almost a decade. And they're happy to help anyone who may need assistance! It's actually quite simple, and not as costly as most think. Having been utilized on steam in Brazil since around 2010. |
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| Author: | NYCRRson [ Thu Aug 12, 2021 9:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: PTC and Mainline Steam |
Quote: In theory, you can absolutely put all the PTC equipment onto the steam locomotive and tool car and modify it accordingly. But in practice, it raises an assortment of cumbersome issues for a non-profit organization to take on: - who hosts and pays for the PTC software? - who maintains and pays for the back-office server? - how do you pay the annual licenses and renewal for software - who pays for the separate liability insurance for your PTC program? And; - Who makes sure all of the software components are updated on a regular schedule - Who makes sure all PTC enabled units in a consist are at the same software revision level and are compatible - Who is responsible for anti virus/malware software installation/version control for all units involved. Software is great.... until it fails like everything else a human has ever designed. As for me. with decades of experience with "stuff" controlled by software, I'll take a pass on riding behind a steam locomotive with "software" involved in the safety system. PTC has already killed an Amtrak Crew down in South Carolina when the "old fashioned" signal system was "turned off" so the RR could meet the installation schedule mandated by unknowledgeable politicians. Cheers, Kevin. |
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| Author: | PaulWWoodring [ Fri Aug 13, 2021 9:19 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: PTC and Mainline Steam |
The thing about running a mainline (or even regional) steam-powered excursion in the 21st Century is that they pretty much always run with supervision on-board, in close contact with dispatching, so even if there were to be a signal suspension of some kind, the redundancy of communications on the train would probably prevent a disaster from happening. It's when an operation becomes "normalized" that people let their guard down and the gremlins can creep in. |
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| Author: | co614 [ Fri Aug 13, 2021 9:56 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: PTC and Mainline Steam |
NYC RR son obviously hasn't got a clue about the operating realities of mainline steam in today's class 1 world. We ALWAYS have a pilot engineer ( selected for his excellent knowledge of the physical terrain) and usually a Senior RFE plus the steam qualified engineer & fireman. The real need to have PTC to ensure safety is zero unless you think all 4 of those men will have a heart attack simultaneously. The only real reason that we'll need to make steamers PTC compatible is to satisfy the railroad lawyers and the FRA. Pretty much akin to teats on a bull but politically unavoidable. Ross Rowland |
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| Author: | jayrod [ Fri Aug 13, 2021 10:18 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: PTC and Mainline Steam |
NYCRRson wrote: - Who makes sure all of the software components are updated on a regular schedule - Who makes sure all PTC enabled units in a consist are at the same software revision level and are compatible - Who is responsible for anti virus/malware software installation/version control for all units involved. I am acquainted with a person that works in an NS locomotive shop and that is his specific job. Software is not a willy-hilly thing where you just load it up and go and then you forget about it. |
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| Author: | Bobk [ Sun Aug 15, 2021 3:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: PTC and Mainline Steam |
During testing of the LeaPTC on 4014 FRA was on board, literally. The concept for this platform has been in development for a number of years with different hardware switching devices being tested and upgraded. I know of one diesel unit with this platform installed. This is the first installation on a steam locomotive however two other steam locomotives have shared in this development. |
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