Greetings all!

I am looking for a little insight. At the Rochester & Genesee Valley Railroad Museum, we are hoping to pour part of our concrete floor in our restoration facility in the coming months. Right now, we are trying to make sure we have all of our i's dotted and t's crossed as concrete is a pretty final step and expensive to correct if mistakes are made.

Our building is 60' by 140' and will support two through tracks for railroad equipment. One track will have a pit, however, we are concerned with the other side of the building without the pit right now. More funds are needed for the pit, but we have more than enough money to do the other 2/3's of the floor.

We have had some questions come up regarding the rails in the floor, and I am seeking some insight from those on this board that may have already answered them.

The plan moving forward was to do any necessary grading inside the building, place at least 6" of crushed stone (probably crusher run for its compactability), lay the track at we normally would, fill the cribs with stone (or maybe leave them open) and then encase the track in concrete. We are planning for flangeways in the floor which will be scultped before the floor cures.

Some people are concerned this type of construction will lead to cracks in the floor over time. So...

- Can anyone shed some light on how you installed the rails in your concrete floor in your shop?
- How has it worked out?
- Would you have changed anything?

I know some people just leave the track open and just fill it with stone level to the rest of the concrete floor, however, we have seen many other shops with all concrete. I think the latter may work better for us.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks!

Until later,
Chris
R&GV RR Museum



Rochester & Genesee Valley RR Museum

crhauf@frontiernet.net

Our shop is all concrete floored. You don't want any Gravel. Fork trucks and gravel don't get along. small parts droped are harder to find,you'll have alot more dust.
you need to tamp compact and do it again to get a good solid base. Yes you will get some cracks sooner or later but oh well. Any cracks are more than made up for by the better working surfaces.
Over 4 years of sometimes 3 shifts and lots of work,(ours is a full time locomotive shop) Our 6 inch base has very few cracks. We even jack em up right on the floor.Of course we put down a steel plate to spread the load.
One little thing is the safety. Ladders and the like are much safer on a firm level surface, not gravel.

irss@eriecoast.com

Chris,
A few observations, from looking at other intstallations:
Rail head MUST be higher than the concrete, otherwise you chip concrete alongside the rail with your wheels. Seems like a simple thing, but I've seen quite a few places where they tried to have the concreet flush with the railhead.

Pour the concrete above the ties seperately from the rest of the floor pour, so when you do need to rework the track, you don't have to break up the floor.

I have also seen the rail bolted to the concrete, no ties used. Unfortunately the contractor spaced the rails based on the center of the rail, not the inside edge of the head!! Ooops!
S'
David D.

djdewey@cncnet.com

If you can afford steel ties it will make the concrete around the rails, especially on the outside of the gauge much stronger and less prone to cracking. Don't be afraid to use a lot of bar and mesh for strength. Railhead slightly above concrete as mentioned above. slight slope away from rail for drainage. A moisture barrier between the gravel helps keep the humidity down in the building and makes the concrete easier to work. Don't use sloppy wet concrete, it is easier to work but lower strength. Don't puddle too much keep lottsa aggregate near the top. etc, etc

lamontdc@adelphia.net

Question - Do you plan to do any jacking of equipment on the concrete floor adjacent to the track? If you are, then you run the risk of a punching shear failure of the concrete underneath the jack. Our shop floor has a reinforced section designed for jacking loads that extends out a short distance past the rail head. I believe the concrete is about 24 inches deep in this section.

When the concrete was placed, an area was formed to allow for the rail. To anchor the rails in place, we used wedge type anchor bolts and crane rail clips.

Be sure to leave the top of concrete slighly below the top of rail head. If you have wheels that are tread worn hollow and have the top of concrete at the top of rail, those wheels will be crushing the concrete.

G. Mark

TVRM Shop Updates by Steve Freer
aw90h@cs.com

G. Mark,

Yes, we have plans for jacking inside the building and we have had mixed reports on the needs for jacking pads, however, I think we will lean on the side of installing them. Better to be safe than sorry. We have, however, considered putting the jacking pads on the other track and alongside the pit so we may not need to worry about those for the side we want to do first.

As for the rails in the floor from what I can tell, the rail in your building is bolted to the concrete floor in channels made in the concrete. Is that correct or were the rails installed in some other fashion: rails on wood ties, rails on steel ties, etc.? If they were installed in channels and bolted to the floor, were the channels then filled with concrete or left open to allow access to the rail bolts for maintenance?

Any further input would be appreciated as I know TVRM does a lot of heavy work in their buildings.

Thanks!

Until later,
Chris



Rochester & Genesee Valley RR Museum
crhauf@frontiernet.net

Another timely discussion, as we are preparing to install a concrete floor in our Los Angeles Railway carhouse at OERM. My question concerns forming the flangeways- I'm looking for recommendations on different methods. We have recently formed flangeways in concrete floors with small section steel angle (say 2" x 2"). The lengths are tack welded in place before the pour, filled with wood to avoid filling them up, and then the wood is pulled out when its done.

I have also seen flangeways formed with a simple beveled edges on the concrete to clear the flanges. This looks easier than installing the steel angle, although I'm looking for input. Are the beveled edges done with a wooden form, or with some kind of troweling process during finishing?

> G. Mark,

> Yes, we have plans for jacking inside the
> building and we have had mixed reports on
> the needs for jacking pads, however, I think
> we will lean on the side of installing them.
> Better to be safe than sorry. We have,
> however, considered putting the jacking pads
> on the other track and alongside the pit so
> we may not need to worry about those for the
> side we want to do first.

> As for the rails in the floor from what I
> can tell, the rail in your building is
> bolted to the concrete floor in channels
> made in the concrete. Is that correct or
> were the rails installed in some other
> fashion: rails on wood ties, rails on steel
> ties, etc.? If they were installed in
> channels and bolted to the floor, were the
> channels then filled with concrete or left
> open to allow access to the rail bolts for
> maintenance?

> Any further input would be appreciated as I
> know TVRM does a lot of heavy work in their
> buildings.

> Thanks!

> Until later,
> Chris


Orange Empire Railway Museum
jsmatlak@earthlink.net

Mark Ray is prob. a good source for this info, as he's a civil engineer.
I am a project mgr for an architectural firm, and work in a 1926 RR shop on the weekends to keep my sanity. I would have to go with the "It'll develop cracks over time" group tho... esp. since those ties won't last forever.

Our roundhouse has tracks in the concrete floor, as does the 1926 coach shop we are trying to acquire. In the case of the roundhouse, the rail is anchored in the surface of the concrete, and wood block flooring laid on the concrete to come up to rail head hieght. Wood block doesn't chip like concrete, it absorbs spills, and cushions heavy gray iron castings when they accidently hit the deck, all things that are good. The stuff is still available from several sources. The block is about the size and shape of a brick. Not a bad way to go. Flangeways are formed by bolting a timber to the floor and laying block up to it.

I would guess that there is a pretty heavy grade beam with plenty of reinforcing in the area of the rails, or possibly one under each rail. We accidently ran one pair of wheels on a heavyweight off the end of the rail onto an area of floor with no block, you can't even tell it happened. A normal 4" building slab would have been toast. There isn't a crack in the entire floor area that I've seen. (We've lost a good deal of the wood block to rot over the past 70+ years).

Were it me, would go with heavy concrete spread footings under each rail tied together at intervals with cross-beams, (or one wide enough to go under both rails) and embed threaded foundation anchor bolts in the pour along each side of the rail base to anchor the rail. Mark's post pour anchors would prob. work too. The spread footing will be, or should be made, wide enough for any jacking requirements. You might want to make it heavier outside the rails, as that's where the loads can be more concentrated. (See the TVRM website for the photos of a LARGE consol sitting up in the air on four jacks, not spread out over the ten locations) Then go back and form and pour your floor surface. Compaction of the subgrade is going to have to be very thorough, and any bad soil removed and replaced. You might want to get a good civil or structural engineer in the area to give you specifics based on soil bearing capacity and equipment wieghts.

rudd@cogdellmendrala.com

Chris:

I would recommend you put the jacking pads into the walls of the proposed pit track. It needs to be formed up anyway and will be more cost effective.

As for the floor specify 5,000 psi concrete a minimum of 6" thick. If you go 8" with reinforcing grid wire you can almost run a locomotive on the floor alone. You will get minor surface cracks but the floor will not break apart. I have seen shop floors heavily abused built to a similar spec and have stood the test of time.

I have built four shops with concrete floors with no long term maintenance problems.

Stone Consulting & Design
garylandrio@stoneconsulting.com

I am working on a similar problem with our stationary engine. I want to set it up temporarily on a concrete pad, since we haven't the funds for the full foundation that this engine requires to operate. We've been mulling over the thickness of the slab required, and I think what we are going to proceed with is a 12" slab, 5,000 psi air entraining fibered concrete, reinforced with #5 rebar spaced in a 12" grid, one grid 3" from the bottom of the slab and the second one 3" from the top of the slab. The engien will rest upon four points on this slab, each point bearing the weight of 65,000 lbs. Under this slab is a 12" base of 2x4 and 4x4 steel slag, with a 6" layer of fine steel slag over that.

jrowlands@neo.rr.com

> Greetings all!
Hi Chris You asked for input. We at O.E.R.M. added flangeway steel to one of our work barns this past summer. we used 2"X 2" steel and spot weilded it to the web of the rail then to hold it in place we ran 1/2" rebar from rail to rail [angle iron to angle iron] every 10ft. I cut 2"x 4" [old redwood] to fit in the flangway,this must be removed before the concrete sets up inasmuch as the water will swell the redwood or any other wood and rust it to the rail. I left the wood in until the next weekend, big mistake! It took one of our best men all day to remove it using a track bar and working inside of a tin building in July.
You may want to add a layer of plastic to keep the concrete from going below the top of the ties, this will make future tie replacement easer. Your plan for using stone and filling to the tops of the ties is the way to go.
If I can be of future help drop me a Line.
Dave W.
> I am looking for a little insight. At the
> Rochester & Genesee Valley Railroad
> Museum, we are hoping to pour part of our
> concrete floor in our restoration facility
> in the coming months. Right now, we are
> trying to make sure we have all of our i's
> dotted and t's crossed as concrete is a
> pretty final step and expensive to correct
> if mistakes are made.

> Our building is 60' by 140' and will support
> two through tracks for railroad equipment.
> One track will have a pit, however, we are
> concerned with the other side of the
> building without the pit right now. More
> funds are needed for the pit, but we have
> more than enough money to do the other 2/3's
> of the floor.

> We have had some questions come up regarding
> the rails in the floor, and I am seeking
> some insight from those on this board that
> may have already answered them.

> The plan moving forward was to do any
> necessary grading inside the building, place
> at least 6" of crushed stone (probably
> crusher run for its compactability), lay the
> track at we normally would, fill the cribs
> with stone (or maybe leave them open) and
> then encase the track in concrete. We are
> planning for flangeways in the floor which
> will be scultped before the floor cures.

> Some people are concerned this type of
> construction will lead to cracks in the
> floor over time. So...

> - Can anyone shed some light on how you
> installed the rails in your concrete floor
> in your shop?
> - How has it worked out?
> - Would you have changed anything?

> I know some people just leave the track open
> and just fill it with stone level to the
> rest of the concrete floor, however, we have
> seen many other shops with all concrete. I
> think the latter may work better for us.

> Any help would be appreciated.

> Thanks!

> Until later,
> Chris
> R&GV RR Museum


davewolven@msn.com

chris:

spoke with the CMO here at Heber last night. Ten years ago as they built the new shop for the railroad they wanted to "do it right the first time". We too have two shop tracks. Number one (east and in main shop) has the drop table pit associated with it. Concrete legs four feet wide, eight feet deep and the length of the shop were poured with channels for the rail to be bolted into flush with the floor surface(this allows for laying planks or mats over the rails for open houses, moving forklifts, handtrucks etc around the shop). The concrete in these legs is rated for loading to 80000psi.

Track two (west side) leads to the steam-up bay with its inspection pit. In the area of the pit the legs are six feet deep, not as highly rated for weight-bearing although we have "lightly lifted" 618 and 1813 to work on springs and bearings. Track two is bolted to the concrete surface (no channel).

if you are further interested in what the specifics are, contact John Rimmasch, CMO at Heber and he would be glad to answer questions.
doc lewis

Heber Valley Railroad
utweyesguy@aol.com

We just finished pouring concrete in our car shop and used 2 inch foam insulation, cut 2.5 inches. glued them to the inside of the rail, and held them in place with wood stickers until the floor was poured, then removed the wood. The first car over the new rail, just pushed the foam down, and all is well.
We are going to also pour concrete in our back shop, and making the rail just proud of the floor makes some sense. Will look at that.
Ron Brinton
SVRR

ronbrin@eoni.com

We just renovated a building into a car shop with a full concrete floor so heres my input...

The floor is 18+ inches thick at the rail and about 10 feet wide at that thickness, oh BTW, this is for 36" gauge track. The rail was not poured directly into the floor but troughs were formed in the slab with studs every 36" to attach the rail. The rails were laid into the troughts and leveled with a real transit (not laser) from end to end and side to side. Don't forget gauge. After everything was tight and rechecked with the transit the troughs were filled with grout. For flange ways we modified a trowl to form the gap by working it back and forth along the rail. Generated a nice finish.

I have since seen pictures of a better methodused in a light rail installation. The Rails were assembled and bolted to steel bars on 3-4 foot centers. the bars extended about 18" outside of the rails and a leveling bolt was installed in the end of the bar. The track was then alligned in all directions and a rebar mat built around it. Once completed a single monolithic pour was made with the rails supporting the screed boards. A rubber molding was used on either side of the rail for flangways. The rubber could be omitted and the rail head raised by notching the screed boards and adjusting the flange trowl.

Yes having the railhead higher than the sorrounding floor is a very good idea. We are supporting the new frame and body we are building on heavy 4 inch H beams set directly on the rail heads. So far its working great. (and yes we have figured out how to lift it)

another 2cents worth.

Paul

Stuhr Museum
pfdx@aol.com