I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHAT TYPE OF RAILROAD POCKET WATCHES WAS USED BY THE RAILROADS,,,, PART -2 OF QUESTION AND WHAT GRADES,,NOT EVERY POCKET WATCH WAS A RAILROAD WATCH,,, ....WHAT TYPES AND SIZES,,,AND WHAT STANDWARDS WHERE SET BY THE RAILROAD'S AND HOW MANY JEWEL'S EITHER MIN,,OR MAX...WHERE USED...............THANK YOU PAT CPRH1b@attbi.com AND WHO BEING WHAT WATCH MAKER WAS THE LEAGER WHOWAS THE ROLL'S ROYCE OF POCKET WATCHES.............

cprh1b@attbi.com

I cannot answer your questions directly, but if you go to ebay, you'll see many types at varying prices. You can formulate some ideas that way. There is probably a book on the topic also.

Check out: http://www.clockworks.com/wbooks.html they offer the "Railroad Watch Encyclopedia" fro $59. Good luck and hunting.

wyld@sbcglobal.net

> I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHAT TYPE OF RAILROAD
> POCKET WATCHES WAS USED BY THE RAILROADS,,,,
> PART -2 OF QUESTION AND WHAT GRADES,,NOT
> EVERY POCKET WATCH WAS A RAILROAD WATCH,,,
> ....WHAT TYPES AND SIZES,,,AND WHAT
> STANDWARDS WHERE SET BY THE RAILROAD'S AND
> HOW MANY JEWEL'S EITHER MIN,,OR MAX...WHERE
> USED...............THANK YOU PAT
> CPRH1b@attbi.com AND WHO BEING WHAT WATCH
> MAKER WAS THE LEAGER WHOWAS THE ROLL'S ROYCE
> OF POCKET WATCHES.............

Railroad pocket watches had to be lever set; could not have a shatter-proof crystal (no flip open cases permitted either); had to have a specific style of face and hands (as in: no Roman numerals, certain style of hand, a second hand, and have 5 10 15 etc around the outside of the hours); have 17 or more jewels in their movements and use only certain types of escapements; could not be affected by magnetism; and had to run without losing a specified amount of time in some 7 standard positions: stem up, stem down, stem at 3:00 o'clock & 9:00 o'clock, watch lying face up and face down, and one or two other positions which escape me at the moment. And they had to be inspected, tested, and certified by a company authorized watch inspector at specified intervals. You had to carry your watch certification (commonly called a "watch card") with you at all times while on duty and present it, along with your watch, for inspection by a Company officer on demand.

Common brands were Hamilton, Elgin (B.W. Raymond movements), Waltham, J.L Howard . . . I retired my Waltham (which never lost any time and replaced an older Raymond) about 14 years ago in favor of an electronic marvel which cost about $10. This electronic thing is nowhere near as spiffy as the Waltham, but it keeps time much more accurately and has stopwatch, calender, illuminated dial, and alarm functions too (never needs winding either).

And please turn your caps lock off when typing your posts.

The Railroad Watch Encyclopedia is a nice place to start learning about railroad watches. However, Dr. Townsend has been dead for nearly thirty years and a lot of research on the subject has turned up a lot of new knowledge since his passing. There have been researchers studying the history and development of railroad watches for years, so there's no simple answer to give.

Railroad watch requirements evolved over time as watchmaking techonology advanced. The first railroad watches were 18 size, 15 jewel keywound B. W. Raymonds manufactured by the Elgin National Watch Company in the late 1860s. Up until the late 1880s and early 1890s, railroad watches had either 15 or 17 jewels depending on the manufacturer and grade of the watch. 19 and 21 jewel watch movements did not appear until the 1890s.

Some railroad watches were lever set movements but many were not. Lever set did not become a requirement until about 1914 and even then, many older watches were grandfathered in under the old rules. This also meant that many hunting case watches with the metal lids were allowed to continue in service. However, they were not allowed to be placed in open face cases unless they had a corrective dial that placed the stem of the watch at the 12 o' clock position.

Early watches were adjusted to only three positions, temperature, and isochronism. Later watches were adjusted to five and six positions. The positions are: stem up, stem down, stem left, stem right, dial up and dial down. Watches had to be taken to the watch inspector for comparison with a standard clock once every two weeks and had to be compared with a standard clock before every trip. The watch had to be taken in for a cleaning once every twelve to eighteen months and had to be adjusted or repaired by the watch inspector if it failed to keep time within allowed limits-variation not exceeding gain or loss of more than 30 seconds in 72 hours. Records of comparison were noted on the employee's watch inspection card, which had to be in their possession at all times. It should be noted that most railroad time services prohibited railroad employees from setting the time on their watches for safety and technical reasons.

To determine what is and is not a railroad watch, one has to look at what the requirements were at the time that the watch was manufactured. One also has to consider that the watch may have been grandfathered in under old rules. Take the watch of John Luther Jones for instance: it was bought by Jones in the early 1890s when he was first promoted to engineer by the Illinois Central. It was a Waltham Grade 35 which was a 15 jewel, pendant set movement. Furthermore, it had a roman numeral dial but it was grandfathered in under the rules set forth by J.W. Forsinger, the IC's Chief Watch Inspector at that time. To determine what watches would have been accepted for service on a particular railroad, you would have to look at the list of approved watches provided by that line to their watch inspectors. Standards were set by the watch inspectors and the best railroad watches were considered to be those sold (but not manufactured) by the Ball Watch Company; Cleveland, Ohio.

awalker2002@comcast.net

Lots of interesting information here. Today, we're required to have a watch, but with no specific requirements as to what kind (at least where I work).

Anyone know if Casey Jones' watch survived? Is it on display somewhere?

ryarger@rypn.org

> Today, we're required to have a watch, but with no
> specific requirements as to what kind (at
> least where I work).

I always wondered about modern requirements ... our cutting edge, two steps ahead of the FRA, outfit has a list of acceptable railroad watches, without one of which you are not acceptable as a crew member.



lamontdc@adelphia.net

J. L. Jones's watch has been on display for years at the Casey Jones Home and Museum in Jackson, Tennessee. It was removed from display temporarily during 2000 and sent to a photographer's studio where it was photographed. The photographs were only published in the journal of the National Association of Watch and Clock Collectors that fall.

Some railroads still have minimum requirements for watches used by operating personnell. Norfolk Southern used to have a list of approved watches but has since discontinued listing approved watches.


awalker2002@comcast.net

I began digging into Railroad Watches a couple of years ago when I inherited one. The Intenet has a vast amount of information for those who know how to poke around. Alan covered the high points very well. Just a few other characteristics that seem to apply to Railroad watches. As stated, the standard evolved constantly as the technology did, and varied from road to road:
1. Must have a white face with black or blue hands and black arabic numerals
2. Must have a distinct tick mark at each minute so the time can be accurately read to the minute
3. Hands tend to be of different shape as well as different length.
4. Stem must be at 12 o'clock position to avoid confusion.
5. Must be lever set to prevent inadvertently messing up the time while pulling the watch out of your bibs.
6. Canadian roads require numbers 13 thru 24 as well as 1 thru 12 on the dial.
7. A common early 20th century dial was the Montgomery which had a numeral for each minute, 1-60, around the outer edge. Great for accuracy as long as your eyes can read them.

I also found a 1960's Accutron wrist watch with most of the above characteristics that says RAILROAD APPROVED on the dial. First adventure into electrinic timekeeping? (or the end of civilization as we knew it???)

Amazing what directions one can spin off in when pursuing a hobby.

mark@gromurph.org

Probably the most popular as well as being the most durable and easily repaired railroad watch was the Hamilton 992B Railway Special. I have 2 of these in my collection. The watch I have in regular use is a 23 jewel Waltham Vanguard with a 24 hour Northern Pacific dial. I also have 21 jewel Illinois Bunn Special, a 23 jewel Elgin RR Father Time with up/down mainspring winding indicator, a 21 jewel Elgin RR BW Raymond and a 19 jewel Howard in my collection. All are size 16 lever set movements. In addition to that I have a 18 size 23 jewel Waltham Vanguard with 7 of the jewels made from diamond. Another watch that was popular amoung railroaders was the Ball. Ball Watch never made any watches them selves but contracted them to Elgin, Hamilton, Howard Etc to their specifications. I also have a large collection of parts for Elgin, Waltham, Hamilton, and Illinois.
Roger Mitchell
Master Mechanic: Fort Collins Municipal Railway

n0mcr@netzero.com

Yes, the Hamilton 992B was the last railroad pocket watch manufactured, and is probably the best choice for actual use. I have one in my pocket.

Nearly all US watch companies had rr watches at one time -- some were more popular than others, but in the 1940s is was down to Elgin and Hamilton.

I believe the Ball watches were mostly used in the US east.

The dial with all seconds indicated was the "Montgomery dial" invented and favored by the Santa Fe watch inspector -- they used it on station clocks too.

Most manufacturers made a basic model and some premium models. Basic evolved to be 21 jewels, and the more premium ones 23 jewels. Among the highest premium ones were the Howard "Edward Howard" and the Waltham "Premier Maximus".

Those winding indicators, once a relatively cheep add on, increase the collectors prices considerably. By going from a 36 hour spring to a 60 hour, the interest in indicators was eliminated.

gbrewer@yahoo.com

> Probably the most popular as well as being
> the most durable and easily repaired
> railroad watch was the Hamilton 992B Railway
> Special. I have 2 of these in my collection.
> The watch I have in regular use is a 23
> jewel Waltham Vanguard with a 24 hour
> Northern Pacific dial. I also have 21 jewel
> Illinois Bunn Special, a 23 jewel Elgin RR
> Father Time with up/down mainspring winding
> indicator, a 21 jewel Elgin RR BW Raymond
> and a 19 jewel Howard in my collection. All
> are size 16 lever set movements. In addition
> to that I have a 18 size 23 jewel Waltham
> Vanguard with 7 of the jewels made from
> diamond. Another watch that was popular
> amoung railroaders was the Ball. Ball Watch
> never made any watches them selves but
> contracted them to Elgin, Hamilton, Howard
> Etc to their specifications. I also have a
> large collection of parts for Elgin,
> Waltham, Hamilton, and Illinois.
> Roger Mitchell
> Master Mechanic: Fort Collins Municipal
> Railway

I happen to have two railroad watches. My grandfather's Waltham and my father's Hamilton.
Both were veterans of the NP. My Grandfather had 40 years of service, and my father 20.
My father tells me he bought his watch on time(no pun intended) and it cost him more than a month's pay.


dmiller@valleyrelo.com

That wasn't uncommon as watches typically cost forty to eighty dollars, a lot of money back then. Most railroad time services required that their watch inspectors have some arrangement with the railroads that they served which would allow employees to pay for watches by monthly payroll deductions. I've got a copy of the D&RG time service instructions but they're at home. Otherwise I'd cite some information from them.


awalker2002@comcast.net

Alen,

If you ever get home, I would love to hear details from the D&RG time service requirements. When was this? What watches were approved, etc.

> I've got a copy of the D&RG
> time service instructions but they're at
> home. Otherwise I'd cite some information
> from them.


gbrewer@yahoo.com

I'll be back home in early January and will dig that information out. If someone has a real interest in railroad watches or railroad time service, they ought to join the National Association of Watch and Clock Collectors.

There are different interest groups in the National organization, including the Local chapters and there is at least one group dedicated to railroad watches. Railroad watches have been heavily researched and that is still ongoing. The National's bi-monthly publication has one column dedicated solely to railroad watch matters with a different subject for each issue.

The National's website is http://www.nawcc.org and has links to the local chapter websites. If you have the interest and opportunity to do so, find out when a local chapter near you is meeting and go! The Atlanta Chapter has a group of railroad watch collectors who meet at each local meeting and have interesting watches to show, tell and converse over.

awalker2002@comcast.net