ADA Conversions

Scranton Yard · **Joined:** Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:08 am **Posts:** 733

Randy Gustafson wrote:

I've seen some truly good outcomes from ADA accessibility rebuilds, but you have to start with the right car. Any old coach is a headache, and combines are few and far between. But getting the turning radius in on a new restroom starting from 'open space' isn't at all impossible. So I think as a bidder, you had to figure all this out before you bid here. We've gone so far in streetcar rebuilds as to have lift ramps rebuilt into the floor, and that worked.
NPS is no stranger to the problem, and if you've ever seen the $250K rebuild plus sponsorship of the "Invacare" combine on CVSR, you'll see what they think is possible in the NPS mindset.
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPi ... id=3761936
That, of course, bears little resemblance to an 'historic' restoration of an interior. But if you've been to NPS Lowell, they had Gomaco adapt those trolley cars for wheelchair space and you'd never know it to look at them until they pull the presto-chango.

I'm trying to think of any other instance where it's turned into a criminal rather than civil proceeding in this kind of contract work (short of actually hurting somebody physically) and I'm not thinking of much precedent.

I've only had one contractor formally disbarred, but that was at the state, not federal level, but even he finally finished the contract.

Not wanting to derail the thread concerning the current legal activity between the Feds and an infamous currently sidelined rail restoration, maintenance, and repair contractor, I thought I'd repost this in a new thread with the following question.

While it would be certainly useful to discuss the necessary interior modifications, such as the provision of an ADA accessible toilet facility, I'm curious about the needed structural modifications.

NPS has a very nice combine which has been used for ADA compliance for many years now. This already had the wider door for egress to which a lift was added. In the case of the CNJ car that is the subject matter of the legal action, I would imagine that a larger opening would have to be made to provide egress and that this opening would have to be in the side of the car. NPS also has a few DL&W baggage cars (some full of odds and ends if I recall correctly). These have the larger openings in the sides but no windows. From a structural standpoint, to retrofit a car for ADA compliance, is it easier to create a large opening in the side of a coach or to install some small windows in the side of a baggage car?

Dave · **Posted:** Mon Jan 10, 2022 3:37 pm

One hurdle - and this is years old and may have been rectified since - was that when installing a powered wheelchair lift either in or adjacent to a car there was a requirement for an interlock with the train brake such that when the lift was deployed or in use the train could not move. A popular hand powered portable lift was a great way to overcome that issue. I once used a man platform on a forklift for that job.

wilkinsd · **Posted:** Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:08 pm

Cuyahoga Valley Scenic had, in my opinion, one of the better ADA conversions with the former Central of Georgia combine (they have since sold it, sans the ADA equipment.). In the baggage door on each side was a wheel chair lift that could adapt to different platform heights, etc.

Alan Maples · **Posted:** Mon Jan 10, 2022 9:23 pm

When I stopped by the Three Rivers Rambler in Knoxville, TN, three years ago, they had just completed their new open car "Observant" which features a built-in wheelchair lift.

- Alan Maples

EJ Berry · **Posted:** Tue Jan 11, 2022 12:30 am

Steamtown uses the baggage door of CNJ combine 303 for wheelchair entry.

I rode home today in an MU car that predates the ADA. You use a bridge plate to get from a high level platform into the vestibule. Wheelchair and scooter users can and do make the 90 degree turn to get from the vestibule into the carbody. I think the carbody doors were widened to do this.

Phil Mulligan

Doug Debs 2472 · **Posted:** Tue Jan 11, 2022 2:57 pm

Niles Canyon Railway uses Adaptive Engineering Inc. Mobilift TX Portable Wheelchair Lifts. They are manually powered (hand crank up and down), and ADA compliant. More into at https://www.adaptivelifts.com/tx.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIh_yO1K6q9QIVeopaBR14BgTFEAAYASAAEgJTr_D_BwE.

Mobilift TX are designed to operate on paved station platforms. Until a few years ago, we had to use them on well-packed dirt+gravel platforms, but the small wheels underneath are not designed for bumpy surfaces. If you do this, maintenance will be higher than on hard surfaces.

- Doug Debs

Howard P. · **Posted:** Tue Jan 11, 2022 9:05 pm

Railroad Museum of New England in Thomaston, Conn. uses one of those Adaptive Engineering Inc. Mobilift TX Portable Wheelchair Lifts. We had a couple of them, surplus-from-a-local-commuter-agency; when they wore out, we purchased a new one. They're about $9,000 (in 2018 or so). And well worth it!

Howard P.

EJ Berry · **Posted:** Tue Jan 11, 2022 11:08 pm

Here's a website for them. Seems to be the type Amtrak bought lots of.

https://adaptivelifts.com/tx.php

Phil Mulligan

Alexander D. Mitchell IV · **Posted:** Wed Jan 12, 2022 12:17 am

Howard P. wrote:

We had a couple of them, surplus-from-a-local-commuter-agency; when they wore out, we purchased a new one.

Wait a minute. Those things WEAR OUT?!?

Termite7 · **Joined:** Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:29 pm **Posts:** 397

If you have ever read the ADA regulations you would see that traditional railroad equipment is exempt from ADA regulations...same with airplanes. Honest...it's in there in black and white. But I do understand the desire/need for equipment on tourist cars that makes them more accessible. It's a reality of our times and I think it's important.

Now...I have been told by an experienced commercial building contractor that to use the term "ADA" when it does not fully apply opens you up to a very possible world of hurt. If, for example, you pronounce your train is "ADA compliant" and then a person gets on board and finds a doorway that their wheelchair won't fit through...you open yourself up to liability. So I suggest if groups make their equipment "accessible" then use that term (accessible) and not "ADA" unless it is indeed fully ADA compliant. It's like the difference between "vegan" and "vegetarian".

T7

Alexander D. Mitchell IV · **Posted:** Wed Jan 12, 2022 9:27 am

Termite7 wrote:

Now...I have been told by an experienced commercial building contractor that to use the term "ADA" when it does not fully apply opens you up to a very possible world of hurt. If, for example, you pronounce your train is "ADA compliant" and then a person gets on board and finds a doorway that their wheelchair won't fit through...you open yourself up to liability. So I suggest if groups make their equipment "accessible" then use that term (accessible) and not "ADA" unless it is indeed fully ADA compliant. It's like the difference between "vegan" and "vegetarian".

And there was, for a while at least, a vexatious litigant that either took advantage of or abused that distinction repeatedly, and railroads were one of his targets.................

Doug Debs 2472 · **Posted:** Wed Jan 12, 2022 2:55 pm

Quote:

Wait a minute. Those things WEAR OUT?!?

The Mobilift TX portable wheelchair lift is very well made, but it does require preventative maintenance. The wire rope lifting cables eventually wear out. Also the small transport wheels underneath, especially if you have to roll the lift along unpaved areas. I believe that Niles Canyon Railway has the PM done on a regular basis (annually?) by a factory service person.

- Doug Debs