I have been looking at a lot of photos of the Southern and Norfolk Southern trips from the late 1980s through the end in 1994. While some passenger cars seem to have been on almost every trip, others show up only once or twice. I am assuming some of the sponsoring groups provided some equipment for their trips.

Question - is there any kind of listing or roster of the passenger cars that were used on these trips? Any chance some record exists of when the trips ran and what equipment was used on each excursion?

Tim, I'm sure others will be along with some suggestions, but I'm wondering what you'll do with this information?

Are you simply curious as to what cars were used, or is there some additional use that I'm overlooking?

On a somewhat related note, I'd be interested in knowing where all the cars used on the Chessie Steam Special came from and where they ended up, but not to the extent that I'd spend time researching and documenting it...

Bob,

There are several cars that I have been told were used on specific trips that just don't make sense to me - either because of the condition of the equipment or the distance it would have to deadhead to be used. Some cars seem to be on every trip and it looks like a lot of them were from the Roanoke Chapter of the NRHS. In addition Southern/NS owned stuff that seemed to form the nucleus of the trips.

For several of these cars I am trying to put together an all time list of routes/destinations a car has gone from construction till now. Knowing if they were on the steat trips would help.

I consider it remarkable enough that Jim Wrinn was able to cobble together what is supposedly a "complete" list of all SR/NS excursions from 1964-1994 in his 2000 "Steam's Camelot" book on the SR/NS program. Pulling together a complete CAR list might be close to impossible, but I've long ago accepted that there is no bunch of data so trivial that some railfan with a touch of Asperger's Syndrome autism won't tackle it. It has to exist out there somewhere.

As an example of the logistics involved, after the switching wreck that damaged seven cars on Sept. 28, 1994, NS had to lease four coaches from the North Carolina DOT (used on Amtrak's Piedmont trains), two coaches from Atlanta Rail Car, and a car from the Watauga Valley NRHS. If you had to do the same in a hurry today for, say, UP or CP to maintain previously scheduled commitments, I'm not positive you could find seven such cars available on short notice, save for something like an ex-MARC PRR car from the B&O Museum or bilevels from a transit agency, and even then they might not be accepted for interchange fast enough.

As for the Chessie Steam Specials/Safety Express, that's a far easier proposition. Chessie maintained a complete set year to year with little to no variation, each numbered separately for its train duty. The complete (and quite detailed) rosters of the equipment used were published as part of the on-board hand-outs each passenger received, with four standard pages for the train, concept, and car roster, and four pages for the route and itinerary, ETT-style, with notes on lineside attractions and the like. The cars used, as I recall, were a smattering of privately-owned cars from the Steam Locomotive Corporation of America (i.e. Ross Rowland), Railroad Passenger Cars Inc. (a Baltimore car-owning group), and a couple other sources. If anyone wants to pay my transcription fees, I'll pull up copies........

I believe the majority of the Western Maryland Scenic's fleet came from the old steam program, most notably the "Man O'War" combine coach. That's a start, ain't it? ;)

The lightweight stainless steel 840-series cars were 1958-built (by P-S and SR) ex-SR 52-seat coaches that transferred to excursion duty after the end of SR passenger service on the Crescent. Not all of the cars went to WMSR; I remember reading just a day or two ago of another of these cars on the West Coast, still in Tuscan red.

Two cars also went to the Great Smoky Mountain in Bryson City.

Oh, and yes, good luck with the list!! Tall task indeed.

Here is a list of equipment we used on Heart Of Dixie sponsored or co-sponsored trips:
Frisco 1603 Buffet/Louge "Glendale" - Scrapped 2011
Frisco 1602 Coach - Still in service at HOD museum
Southern Baggage #4527 (commissary car) - Stored serviceable at HOD
Southern coach 1001 - scrapped 2011 (Not sure if original number)
Southern coach 1005 - scrapped 2011 (Not sure if original number)
Illinois Central 2202 Dome Coach, ex MoPac 892, 592 - in service at HOD

Not every car was used on every trip.

Bill

While I agree it would be impossible to come up with a consist for every excursion, you might consider the following timeline in a very rough draft:

First excursion cars were those that Southern pulled from regular service which were mostly small window heavyweights.

As the excursion program grew, the small window heavyweights were joined by the baggage car converted into the "Queen and Crescent Club Car" and the "Missionary Ridge" open air car. The vestibule doors on many of the coaches were made into dutch doors.

Several of Southern's 82' modernized heavyweights were assigned to the program in the early and mid 1970's along with the former Central of Georgia smoothside lightweights including the ex C of G combine that was turned into the "Man O' War" and later the "William J. Purdie".

The end of the Southern Crescent saw the addition of five of the six 1958 Pullman Coaches and the retirement of the single vestibule modernized heavyweights which either entered work train service, were sold or were donated.

With the merger came the addition of many former Norfolk and Western coaches that were either part of the N&W office car fleet or were owned by Roanoke Chapter or on occasion, the Tidewater Chapter of the NRHS.

After the wreck in the Great Dismal Swamp, all the remaining company owned heavyweights were retired due to the new tightlock coupler requirement. At this point, NS began to lease cars on a more regular basis. Some of those cars were cars that had been donated or sold to several years prior to the derailment.

Next came the bastardization of the Southern Silversides and the red paint that they wore until the end of the program. With this transition came the requirement that everything be painted "Roanoke Red" as some folks have termed the N&W paint.

When the second accident happened right before the end of the program, a scramble occurred to lease cars from anyone who had a car to lease and that led to many cars being made into the train that had never been used before.

Some other highlights included but are not limted to:

The addition of a second open air car - "W. Graham Claytor Jr."
The coming and going of the former Southern heavyweight sleeper "Lake Pearl"
The coming and going of former Southern Bedroom-Lounge car "Crescent Moon"
The "Fort Mitchell" which was former Central of Georgia Combine built for the Man O' War which was donated to the Roanoke Chapter.
Cars leased by Golden Age Rail Equipment, Atlanta Railcar, and Watauga Valley Chapter among others.
TVRM trips in which many of the cars were owned by TVRM
Old Dominion Chapter 1006
I am sure others can add to the list. On a final note, even my car, former Southern Budd Coach 819 has been photographed in excursion service out of Memphis in the late 1970's so there is no hard and fast rule about which cars might have run behind a Southern Steam Special at any given time.

That begs the question......were there any usable parts on the cars that went to scrap? Couplers? Trucks? Brake rigging? A light fixture? A grab iron? Is anyone else on earth still trying to operate any of those cars? Does it every occur to anyone out there that some of these parts CANNOT BE REPLACED?!?!?!?!?!?!

On a note regarding the Chessie Steam Special cars.... I was told the B&O car shown below last year in Huntington WV was a Chessie Steam Special car, carrying the name E.M. Frimbo... ( I was told this by someone locally in Huntington )... For those who do not know anything about E.M. Frimbo... the name pays tribute to Rogers Ernest Malcolm Whitaker (January 15, 1900 – May 11, 1981) who was an editor of The New Yorker magazine and was also known to readers for his many contributions to Talk of the Town under the pen name of E. M. Frimbo, World's Greatest Railroad Buff.

Perhaps someone can verify the use of this car... I suspect the person who shared this information with me, is a credible source of information....


Dean Levin

I can speak relatively factually (given my age and "CRS") on the Roanoke Chapter NRHS equipment used on the train, since I have been rather "intimately involved" with them since 1972. As one of the trip sponsoring groups, the Chapter received 3 cars as a donation from SR in 1969. They were baggage car 128 (now a storage car at 9th St) and coaches 1204 and 1205. 1204 and 1205 were locally significant, they were both "Jim Crow" divided coaches assigned from the 50's to the N&W/Southern run through pool between Monroe & Bristol. Both cars were used on Chapter trips and occasionally by other sponsors. 1205 was converted about 1970 to a comissary configuration with a sales counter replacing the"white" seating section, the larger rest rooms becoming storage areas. 1204 saw regular use on the steam train. It was converted to "full coach" using seats from 1205 and open "bus" windows in 1972 due to issues with the steam ejector A/C system. 1205 was last used on Chapter trips in 1976, then went to the "Roanoke Transportation Museum" (VMT's predecessor) as the gift shop in 1977. 1204 remained in service until about 1980, when various mechanical issues caught up with it. Both cars were sold to the Waccamaw Coast Line in the early 80's, and still exist on the Carolina Southern.

In 1973 we bought ex-N&W (nee-Wabash) coach 1827. After some quick cosmetic work, it went into regular lease service on the steam train (and also made some appearances on the "Piedmont" and the "Crescent") It was the first "Roanoke Red" car in the train. In 1974 we aquired ex-GN dinette/dormitory 1148. By then we were running a number of cross country excursions, turning ferry movements of the steam train into revenue generators. 1148 provided "upscale" food service (I think we were the first to introduce "Nachos" to the state of West Virginia) and was a crew dormitory on overnight trips. 1148 served as a dormitory for the steam crew during the Bicentennial Excursions out of Alexandria in 1976. It continued in sevice as the upscale food car until the end of the program. From the late 70's until around 1992 there was a sufficient pool of equipment, both company owned and belonging to sponsors, that a trip sponsor could, within reasonable logistical considerations, have a consist that was tailored to their market and operating preferences. Also in the late 70's, a demand for "first class" service developed. We purchased ex-IC 3305, the "Mardi Gras" for this end in 1977. It ran through 1978 in IC colors and went red in 1979. After 611's return in 1982, it was the primary rear of train car with 611 and 1218 until it was joined by "Kittchi Gammi Club" in 1992.

After SR joined Amtrak in 1979, SR donated 3 additional cars to us, combine 727, and sleepers "Yadkin River" and "Wauhatchie Valley". We added a sales/comissary counter into 727's baggage end, and it went into service as a second recording car and auxiliary comissary car. During most of the 80's, the program was running 2 train sets, with 4501, 750, the FP7's, and 611 & later 1218. "Yadkin River" was in great shape, except for wreck damage, it had been in the "Crescent" wreck in early 1979. "Wauhatchie Valley" was pretty much a stripped shell, it had been a parts car for the "Crescent" since the early 70's. We scrapped the "Wauhatchie" to provide parts for the "Yadkin", which then went into the "first class" pool, and saw service as a crew car on cross country trips. Around the time of 611's restoration, we purchased ex-N&W (nee-Wabash) coach 1829 out of Baltimore area commuter service, and received 3 N&W coaches, 512, 537, and 538 as a donation. I don't remember if it was before or after the NS merger. 1829 and 537 (which had been in Chicago commuter service) were converted to "OWL's" (open window lightweights) and went into regular service with the steam train as part of 611's regular trainset. 512 remained stored, and 538 was used as a parts car.

The "Dismal Swamp" derailment in 1986 and 1987's return of 1218 to service changed the dynamics of the passenger car pool. The SR heavyweight cars were retired because of the lack of roller bearings & tightlocks, and a lot of "rent-a-junker" cars showed up in the train, simply because they met the NTSB recommendations. After all, who cares about side sills, paint, AC's, and electrical systems? Right? I have a very low opinion of "American Flyer" coaches after one owned by a group in Ohio burst into flames following a generator failure on one of our trips in 1989. In 1987 we started the restoration of N&W 512, returning it to service in 1988. It gained fame in later years as the only coach lettered for the N&W. We also converted 537 back to sealed windows and AC. "Mardi Gras" was getting rather tired by 1990. In 1991, we had the trucks & body reworked to Amtrak standards by Lake Erie Railcar. At the peak of the steam program between 1987 and 1992, we were generating between $75,000 and $100,000 annually leasing cars to NS. In 1991, mostly in response to passenger complaints about the "rent-a-junkers" NS announced that leased cars had to meet new mechanical standards by the 1993 season, including Amtrak-certified trucks, smoothside with red paint, and HEP on all coaches. 1148 was partially exempted because of extensive truck work in 1989 and it's by then rather limited usage by other groups. (North Florida Chapter NRHS by then had a rather fancy baggage car in service with a fully equiped kitchen and a large souvenir area) and Mardi Gras had already been done also. We made the commitment, based on revenue projections, to upgrade all the coaches. 512, 537, 1827, and 1829 all had structural, truck, HEP, and exterior paint work done at Lake Erie Railcar. We did the interior work at 9th St. Cost us about $250,000. At this time, we also retired "Yadkin River" and 727. We sold 727 to the Cuyohoga Valley for conversion to an ADA accessible car. Chuck Jensen bought the "Yadkin River" with intentions of running it with "KGC", but later sold it. I think it is currently listed for sale with one of the brokers. 1829 was one of the cars totaled in the collision of the parked Steam Train with an intermodal train in September of 1994. We salvaged everything we could and scrapped her in the late 90's. We all know what happened in October of 1994. At the Steam Program auction in 1995, we bought ex-N&W Baggage/Tool car 1407.

In the late 1990's the whole remaining train set including our Alco T-6 #41 served as the start up equipment for the "West Virginia Central". We parted ways with WVC in 2003 due to what could be best decribed as maintenance issues on leased equipment. After running gear work at WMSRR, 1407 and 41 came home to Roanoke,and the rest of the passenger cars went to Spencer, providing them with an air-conditioned consist for the summer months. At the 2010 RPCA Convention at Spencer, Ed Ellis fell in love with the Mardi Gras, and Monticello Railroad Museum fell in love with the 1827. Both cars have since been sold to the respective parties. 512 & 513 are continuing to provide Spencer with AC coaches, and 1407 is scheduled to go out on lease next year in it's role as a support car. 1148 is for sale or trade. With our recent "traveling train ride" activity around Roanoke, we'd love to swap it for an N&W, Southern, or even a suitably generic heavyweight coach. We've recently started restoration work on 538.

Not sure if you're interested in PV's that ran occasionally on SR steam specials but in case you are, I ran the ex-L&N (NC&StL) sleeper "Florida Surf" on two trips. The first was the NRHS Convention special from Birmingham to New Orleans but I have forgotten the year. We were pulled by 722 and 4501 in both directions on that trip. Then later, we were in another NRHS Convention train from Washington to Knoxville.

I owned the "Florida Surf" from August, 1972 to May, 1980 when it was sold to the SCD in Mexico. There are days when I wish I still had it as it was completely original inside with Pullman carpet and upholstery. It has 4 roomettes, 5 bedrooms, 1 compartment and 4 open sections. I do still have one sister car, the ex-FEC "Scott M. Loftin" which I re-named "Florida Sunrise". It was sold to CN and ended up with VIA. I bought it in 1983. The series of 9 cars were built in 1954 for the New Dixieland but they also an on the South Wind after the other train was discontinued. All were stainless sided cars from PS.

-Jim Herron

While I could list a lot of cars and trips that I have an interest in, I am very interested in the consists of the trips that ran out of Memphis. Specifically, I would like to know if Lackawanna/Erie Lackawanna diner 469/769 was used on any of these Memphis trips. Bonus if I could get some photos.

The guy that took the photo of Southern 819 says he remembers the car you are asking about. He will keep his eyes peeled for photos. His collection is rather large.