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Rivet Tool for Fluting
https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=46986		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  jayrod [ Fri Oct 28, 2022 11:50 am ]
Post subject:  Rivet Tool for Fluting
Before I start grinding the heck out of the nose of a manual pop rivet tool, does anyone have any suggestions for a tool that fits in the narrow channels in Budd fluting?
Author:  NYCRRson [ Fri Oct 28, 2022 7:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rivet Tool for Fluting
Depending on how narrow and deep the channel is you might get by with putting a stack of washers over the rivet "mandrel" (the part that breaks off) to space out the rivet gun "nose piece" and get clear of the fluting.

The "nose piece" is replaceable at reasonable cost, so maybe you grind two sides of a nose piece down some and use the washers as a standoff.

Or drill the hole for your rivet just a little oversized and "pre-squeeze" the rivet to pull the mandrel out enough that you can grab it in the jaws of the rivet gun.

"Pop Rivet" is a trademark.

https://www.mcmaster.com/blind-rivet-in ... -rivets-8/
Author:  jayrod [ Fri Oct 28, 2022 9:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rivet Tool for Fluting
The fluting channel is about the same width as the screw-in nose piece. I’m going grind the barrel to that width on two sides and give it shot. If it doesn’t quite reach, I’ll use a spacer.
Author:  jayrod [ Mon Oct 31, 2022 9:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rivet Tool for Fluting
An update: I ground down the barrel on an old tool as far as I could as a test subject and still wasn’t quite narrow enough. Instead, I made a spacer by grinding down a small square nut and use two rivet washers, one each side of the nut. That leaves just enough grip in most cases (remove one washer if you need more grip) to set the rivet but the pin is more likely to break at the nose. The remainder of the pin gets snipped and nibbled off with diagonal cutters. Put a dab of good exterior acrylic caulking over the rivets to seal them. Then you can tap the trim channels in with a rubber mallet. Silicone lube spray may help them go in a little easier. It weathers off and doesn’t leave those hard to remove dirt marks from run-down like some silicone sealants do.

This is a project you can do by yourself but I strongly don’t recommend it. At least one extra pair of hands to push and hold the fluting in place greatly speeds the process.
Author:  jayrod [ Sun Nov 27, 2022 11:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rivet Tool for Fluting
Apparently, not too many people here have riveted fluting to a Budd car body or this suggestion would have “popped” up. A light bulb finally came on and a simple solution was illuminated:

Problem #1: The channels in the fluting are too narrow for the nose of a rivet tool to fit into.

Problem #2: The rivet mandrel (pin) is too short to be grabbed effectively by the rivet tool when using spacers to fill the gap on the mandrel between the rivet and tool.

Solution: Rather than order special rivets with a longer mandrel where large minimum quantities apply, buy the longest grip length rivets available in the same diameter and swap the mandrel from the long rivets to the ones you’re using. Now you’ll have the longer mandrel to use with the spacers. In my case, an additional 1/2” does the trick.

Duh.
Author:  mmi16 [ Sun Nov 27, 2022 8:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rivet Tool for Fluting
I thought Budd's claim to fame was that they developed the welding process that allowed stainless steel to be welded - not riveted.
Author:  jayrod [ Sun Nov 27, 2022 10:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rivet Tool for Fluting
For sure all the stainless structural framing parts of a Budd car were assembled in jigs and shot welded together. Shot welding is resistance welding similar to spot welding but without detrimental affects to the stainless steel.

Obviously I’m not a fluting expert and this is the first time I’ve actually had to rehang some panels on the side of a car. I don’t see evidence or a way that the panels could have been shot welded though I could be wrong. Maneuvering the electrodes in there to apply the pressure and current to the tabs and panels would have been extremely difficult on an assembly line. As far as I can tell, the panels on this car were riveted on with blind rivets. The lower side panels on one end of the car must had been exposed to high heat, the panels expanded, the rivets that were holding them sheared off between the panels and tabs on the frame and the fluting thus was sagging out and away from the frame. The repair consists of holding the panels in place, drilling out what’s left of the sheared rivets, and installing new rivets.
Author:  EJ Berry [ Mon Nov 28, 2022 12:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rivet Tool for Fluting
Budd carbody structure is shot welded.

The side fluting is not structural and is not shot welded. This does not include Pioneer III cars, Metroliner cars or Amfleet cars. These do have shotwelded Corrugated (vs. Fluted) sides.

Phil Mulligan
Author:  Overmod [ Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rivet Tool for Fluting
Shotwelding is a technique that delivers a controlled current profile over a controlled time to make the spot welds with minimum metallurgical damage. While it would be difficult to set this up with a two-piece arrangement that would substitute controlled nose or buck force for the jig clamping arrangement, I don't think it would be technically impossible.

I was going to comment earlier that, unless you have pop rivets in compatible alloy or nonconductive material, I'd think you'd be setting up for problems when dirty water gets into the joint. Aside from the kludge factor. Screws can easily be stainless and grommeted.
Author:  Topfuel [ Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rivet Tool for Fluting
"The side fluting is not structural and is not shot welded. This does not include Pioneer III cars, Metroliner cars or Amfleet cars. These do have shotwelded Corrugated (vs. Fluted) sides." Phil Mulligan.

Budd's pre-war and early post-war cars were quite different than their later post-war cars. The earlier cars had a truss frame structure and the fluting was (as far as I know) was always screwed in place, not riveted. Rivets should indicate the fluting was re-attached at some point and rivets were used instead of screws. And as-noted, the fluting was a cosmetic application and not structural.

Most of the later post-war cars (any cars ordered after February of 1948) had a girder frame structure. The fluting application was completely different in these cars, though from an appearance standpoint it looked very similar to the truss-frame style of fluting. The corrugated girder sheet, which incorporated parts of the fluted sides, was in fact structural. The 4 Wabash dome cars and the 4 domes built for the Q in 1952 still had the older truss frame and older fluting application, presumably because Budd had not yet designed a girder frame for their dome cars.

Pullman Standard's stainless steel fluting was always cosmetic and never structural.

Click on photos below for larger picture.

Attachments:
File comment: NP dome coach showing how the flat panels ("flatting" instead of fluting?) of Budd girder frame smooth-side cars were screwed (not riveted) into place over a very similar girder sheet that the later post-war fluted cars had.
IMG_5965 25%.jpg
IMG_5965 25%.jpg [ 132.87 KiB | Viewed 5162 times ]
File comment: Slumbercoach showing how the flutes themselves are slid into place in the girder sheet (no rivets or screws needed), which is integral to the car structure.
IMG_5961 25%.jpg
IMG_5961 25%.jpg [ 174.59 KiB | Viewed 5162 times ]
File comment: Budd 1937 coach being scrapped, showing the fluting applied over the truss-frame car structure
IMG_0715 25%.jpg
IMG_0715 25%.jpg [ 190.68 KiB | Viewed 5162 times ]
Author:  jayrod [ Mon Nov 28, 2022 11:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rivet Tool for Fluting
Thanks for those images. The car I’m working on is 1939 vintage and matches the image of the 1937 car being scrapped.

I very well could be repairing a section that had been redone previously. I do note that not one screw has been seen and I’m redoing half of the side of the car. I’m using 3/16” diameter rivets and they’re working well.
Author:  Topfuel [ Mon Nov 28, 2022 11:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rivet Tool for Fluting
Eric:

Are you using stainless-steel rivets?
Author:  jayrod [ Mon Nov 28, 2022 1:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rivet Tool for Fluting
I’m using all aluminum rivets - no steel pins. They’re galvanically acceptable with 304 stainless and 1/16” larger than what was there. I’m also doing this all by hand. I actually thought about using SS self tappers or thread cutters but over the years I’ve snapped off so many of those due to galling that I didn’t want the hassle.
Author:  Topfuel [ Mon Nov 28, 2022 1:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rivet Tool for Fluting
Eric:

I hope you don't mind me saying so, but you're wasting your time with those aluminum rivets. They will break or rot out in short order. There will be moisture that collects in there no matter what you do, and the aluminum just won't last. It's nothing to do with "galvanic corrosion". Aluminum rivets just won't last in that environment. Get a stronger rivet gun and do yourself a BIG favor and re-do it using stainless steel rivets. Anything else is worthless.
Author:  mmi16 [ Mon Nov 28, 2022 2:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rivet Tool for Fluting
jayrod wrote:
I’m using all aluminum rivets - no steel pins. They’re galvanically acceptable with 304 stainless and 1/16” larger than what was there. I’m also doing this all by hand. I actually thought about using SS self tappers or thread cutters but over the years I’ve snapped off so many of those due to galling that I didn’t want the hassle.

I have pulled more than a few 3/16" 'pop rivets' both aluminum and steel. Aluminum takes some strength, steel takes MASSSIVE MUSCLE. I now defer to a pneumatic rivet gun.

For anything in a rail environment I would feature that aluminum lacks an appropriate amount of strength.
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