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Interesting Asbestos encapsulation AT&SF 811 Atchison Kansas https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=47443	Page 1 of 1

Author:

Jason Midyette [ Tue Jun 20, 2023 5:29 pm ]

Post subject:

Interesting Asbestos encapsulation AT&SF 811 Atchison Kansas

The local historical society has taken over ownership of former Santa Fe 2-8-0 #811 (as well as the other RR equipment on display with it) in Atchison, Kansas. A recent article in the local paper mentioned that they had done some "asbestos work" on the locomotive in preparation to painting it. The article mention that the asbestos had been covered in a "sealant". I was intrigued, so I stopped by and took a look.

As best I can tell, the work involved filling any and all gaps/holes where asbestos may or may not be, with spray foam and then covering the foam with what to me appears to be white latex caulk. (it may well be something else, but it looks and feels like caulk) The caulk appears to have been liberally applied by hand in most places(if the multiple pairs of caulk covered gloves now blocking the fireman's side blowdown pipe are any indication) and with a trowel on the insides of the cylinder jackets.

No prep work was done, and the foam/caulk were applied directly over rust, lichen, dirt and oil. Also the work was done by someone with little, if any, knowledge of steam locomotives as evidenced by the firebox seams and may staybolt telltale holes being caulked up while actual asbestos in other places was ignored.

Has anyone had any experience with this method of asbestos encapsulation on a steam locomotive?

A couple of questions come to mind;

Is this an effective way of doing it? (really is it a legitimate way?)

Will it last?

Will it damage the locomotive more than help it?

I have my thoughts and opinions, but I am curious to see what others in the field think.

Thanks

Jason Midyette

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Author:	jayrod [ Tue Jun 20, 2023 11:27 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Interesting Asbestos encapsulation AT&SF 811 Atchison Ka
Quote: I have my thoughts and opinions, but I am curious to see what others in the field think. I may have the same thoughts and opinions. Looking at those photos and reading your description, my first thought was “Umm…. No”.

Author:	kew [ Wed Jun 21, 2023 2:24 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Interesting Asbestos encapsulation AT&SF 811 Atchison Ka
Covering up the problem for someone else to deal with eventually. The only way to deal with asbestos now is to have it removed in a specialized facility. Or build a sealed tent over it that the fibres can't escape from and can be demolished later and buried with the asbestos. And you really don't want a bunch of cowboys calling themselves asbestos removers bashing away at your loco. I hope it doesn't rain much in your part of the world; any water that gets under the lagging and sits against the boiler barrel will cause a lot of pitting if this loco's a potential goer. The water will have nowhere to go now.

Author:	Frisco1522 [ Wed Jun 21, 2023 8:45 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Interesting Asbestos encapsulation AT&SF 811 Atchison Ka
I've seen expanding foam used.

Author:	joe6167 [ Wed Jun 21, 2023 10:40 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Interesting Asbestos encapsulation AT&SF 811 Atchison Ka
Asbestos insulation (or any insulation) on an outdoor park engine is like cancer (and not just to humans). It retains water and so it causes corrosion to the boiler shell, and especially the staybolt caps, and of course rots out the boiler jacket from the inside-out. On the two engines I was involved with, the abatement was done in place. First major appliances, running boards, pipes etc. were removed by volunteers, then a tent was constructed around the engine. It's kept under a slight negative pressure to capture any asbestos fibres that comes loose while the boiler jacket is being removed. Once the jacket is off, the asbestos is abated. Next came sandblasting and paint (an epic failure on one of the engines). Then a new jacket and reassembly. The new jacket can be installed over (rot resistant) wood blocks or foam as necessary. It's strong enough to support the weight of volunteers when standing on the boiler. On another engine (I wasn't involved with), they removed the asbestos, installed a new jacket, but opted to place fibreglass insulation around the boiler, and designed the jacket so that water couldn't possibly drain out. The result: This new jacket completely rotted out in a fraction of the time as on other engines that hadn't been touched. A total waste of time and money, and damage to the artifact. You need to accept that water will get under the jacket, so it's best to make it as easy as possible for the water to get out once it gets in. IF you use any contractors, remember that THEY DO NOT CARE about your engine. They're just a bunch of dudes, doing hard, dirty work. I saw contractors piss away more money, and do absolute garbage work... it was criminal. The key is to ensure that someone KNOWLEDGEABLE from your organization is supervising the work being done at all times, AND has enough of a SPINE to ensure that the contractors do the job they're paid for, and not destroy or steal anything . Oh and, the "Good Idea Fairy" MUST be shot on sight. It was the "good idea fairy" that suggested using some high-tech modern bridge paint... in the middle of a field... in the middle of autumn... that cost a $hit-ton of $$$... and completely failed to adhere to the metal anywhere on the locomotive... NO MERCY. --- Maybe jobs like sandblasting and painting are best handled by volunteers. I've often wondered if some us formed a small business and put in a bid to do the work, we could have done a better job, wasted less money, gotten some compensation for our efforts, rather than burning a huge pile of $$$ for crap work, which we then had to fix ourselves, FOR FREE...

Author:	Richard Glueck [ Wed Jun 21, 2023 3:27 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Interesting Asbestos encapsulation AT&SF 811 Atchison Ka
The asbestos containment attempted in the initial post is a disaster and will come apart, probably within the year. Nothing has been remediated. Joe 6167 is pretty much on target with the way it should be done. BTW, contractor will cut off anything that gets in the way, figuring A) the locomotive is never going to run again, so it not needed, or B) "Hey, that would look cool in my basement". Asbestos abatement is rotten work that pays workers poorly. The workers are, in some cases, people who can't get work doing other jobs for security reasons. That doesn't mean to characterize all abatement workers in that group, but that has been a lesson learned.

Author:	joe6167 [ Wed Jun 21, 2023 3:36 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Interesting Asbestos encapsulation AT&SF 811 Atchison Ka
Richard Glueck wrote: The asbestos containment attempted in the initial post is a disaster and will come apart, probably within the year. Nothing has been remediated. Joe 6167 is pretty much on target with the way it should be done. BTW, contractor will cut off anything that gets in the way, figuring A) the locomotive is never going to run again, so it not needed, or B) "Hey, that would look cool in my basement". Asbestos abatement is rotten work that pays workers poorly. The workers are, in some cases, people who can't get work doing other jobs for security reasons. That doesn't mean to characterize all abatement workers in that group, but that has been a lesson learned. I was thinking to mention that in my post. I'm pretty sure the guys that the contractor used were ex-convicts.

Author:	Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Wed Jun 21, 2023 5:35 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Interesting Asbestos encapsulation AT&SF 811 Atchison Ka
Now, I know next to nothing aboutb the finer points of asbestos remediation...... .... but if I were some city or EPA inspector looking at this cosmetic travesty, I would say "Heh-heh-heh-heh-heh-heh-heh-heh.................. NO!" and start looking at what they were trying to hide. As others have asserted, this is arguably worse than doing nothing.

Author:	Kelly Anderson [ Thu Jun 22, 2023 12:54 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Interesting Asbestos encapsulation AT&SF 811 Atchison Ka
.

Author:	PMC [ Thu Jun 22, 2023 6:04 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Interesting Asbestos encapsulation AT&SF 811 Atchison Ka
Kelly Anderson wrote: The photos made me think that someone was given early release, but I'd say this proves that there are other incompetent grifters out there separating people from their money and leaving messes in their wake. Do your research and hire honest competent people!!! Actually, someone employed for a short period by said jailbird is a legitimate preservationist who is trained in asbestos remediation, I wouldn't hesitate to contact him for the job, he wouldn't torch off piping because it was bumping his elbow. He is located in a big rectangular state in the Rockies.

Author:	Frisco1522 [ Fri Jun 23, 2023 9:30 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Interesting Asbestos encapsulation AT&SF 811 Atchison Ka
Frisco, back in their donating days donated a surprising number of steam locomotives. To my knowledge each one was beautifully cosmetically restored and the boiler lagging removed. They tack welded steel pieces radially around the boiler to space the jacket the correct distance from the boiler and wrapped steel bands around the radial pieces. Great plan for back then by not leaving the lagging laying against the boiler surface.

Author:	Bruce_Mowbray [ Sat Jun 24, 2023 9:12 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Interesting Asbestos encapsulation AT&SF 811 Atchison Ka
I have experience with this type of temporary encapsulation. This product may work well on interior applications, but once it's out in the weather, the product separates from the jacket when it gets wet from rain, and the jacket aound the product rusts away quite quickly from retained moisture. It also keeps rain water under the jacket only to find another weak area to attack and release more asbestos dues to jacket failure. Do yourself a favor and end the chase of keeping the white stuff from escaping. Abate the locomotive properly. It may be a little more expensive up front, but it will results in less headaches and asbestos spill callbacks in the future. Because our beloved locomotives have been unused and mostly out in the weather for such a long time, with asbestos and coal dust acid doing their evil deed of eating away at the steel componants, removing the jacket and asbestos may give new direction to some restoration projects, especially if the end goal is to have an operating locomotive. The acid that is produced can eat away a good part of the locomotive's attachments, as well at the boiler shell itself. The boilers are now rotting away from the outside to a point where they will not be able to pass their boiler eval and result in either a lower MAWP or worse yet, condemnation.

Author:	softwerkslex [ Mon Jun 26, 2023 8:13 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Interesting Asbestos encapsulation AT&SF 811 Atchison Ka
Nope. Really "smart" they put that sealant on the mudring. The jacket is already rusting through. This was a pointless exercise and they might as well have used the money to take a Caribbean cruise.

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