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T&SF 4-6-4 #3463 managed by a group known as CSRAIL
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Author:  Patricio [ Mon Jun 03, 2024 11:10 am ]
Post subject:  T&SF 4-6-4 #3463 managed by a group known as CSRAIL
I just ran across information concerning an AT&SF 4-6-4 #3463 managed by a group known as CSRAIL. I am really turned on contemplating a Santa Fe Hudson back in steam and I wish to contribute to make this goal a reality. However, I don't have much to go on. Such as are they making progress and what is the loco's present status? Could someone please fill me in with the rest of the story? Thank you.
Author:  Overmod [ Mon Jun 03, 2024 4:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: T&SF 4-6-4 #3463 managed by a group known as CSRAIL
This was CSR, a group formed by Davidson Ward (now a principal, the "W", in FMW solutions. The affiliated group was SRI, the 'Steam Railroading Institute".

The original project was something they called Project 130, which was nominally to modify the sole remaining Ripley Hudson to reach 130mph as a demonstration of steam technology. There was a sort of justification for this in research at a Minnesota university into some form of torrefied fuel, which of course was a hot and carefully researched topic starting in the Nineties for co-firing with coal in powerplant boilers.

Hell broke loose when serious preservationists got wind of this, because they were able to obtain what they thought was good title to the engine -- some would probably prefer the verb 'euchre' -- from the group that had had possession of the engine (and let it slip into disrepair over the years...)

Simiarl to the situation in Port Arthur, groups in Topeka 'woke up' and laid claim to the engine now that it seemed to have market value, and despite CSR/SRI professing to be taking out bonding to restore 3463 to historical original condition at the end of Project 130, the locomotive was never moved, let alone modified beyind the initial "stabilization" that CSR conducted.

Supposedly there is a group of volunteers responsible to the City of Topeka, supposedly doing an ongoing cosmetic restoration. I don't remember having seen any recent signs of major progress, but surely someone here remembers either the name of that group or knows people in it. They would be your best bet for current contact information regarding the state of the locomotive.
Author:  choodude [ Tue Jun 04, 2024 9:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: T&SF 4-6-4 #3463 managed by a group known as CSRAIL
I hope the euchre folks are happy that a chance to bring a decaying park steam locomotive back to life was destroyed.


Brian Helfrich

Edit

https://csrail.org/3463
Author:  Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Tue Jun 04, 2024 11:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: T&SF 4-6-4 #3463 managed by a group known as CSRAIL
choodude wrote:
I hope the euchre folks are happy that a chance to bring a decaying park steam locomotive back to life was destroyed.

However long the realistic odds of that "chance."

Another way to phrase is could be "they destroyed the chance of needing to 'rescue' the remains of that loco from an abortive, unsuccessful rebuild."
Author:  Patrick Fahey [ Tue Jun 04, 2024 11:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: T&SF 4-6-4 #3463 managed by a group known as CSRAIL
Hi all
A friend was in Kansas and stopped to see the locomotive,, the photo I am going to post goes back to 2018,, hopefully the locomotive is in better condition now 2024,, compared to the 2018 photo.. Pat.
Attachment:
File comment: Photo by Bob Foster
AT&SF 3463 # 1.jpg
AT&SF 3463 # 1.jpg [ 76.2 KiB | Viewed 4229 times ]
Attachment:
File comment: Photo by Bob Foster
AT&SF 3463 # 2.jpg
AT&SF 3463 # 2.jpg [ 68.86 KiB | Viewed 4229 times ]
Author:  choodude [ Tue Jun 04, 2024 12:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: T&SF 4-6-4 #3463 managed by a group known as CSRAIL
Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:
choodude wrote:
I hope the euchre folks are happy that a chance to bring a decaying park steam locomotive back to life was destroyed.

However long the realistic odds of that "chance."

Another way to phrase is could be "they destroyed the chance of needing to 'rescue' the remains of that loco from an abortive, unsuccessful rebuild."


It's pretty insulting to suggest that Davidson Ward could not handle rebuilding a steam locomotive.

Brian Helfrich
Author:  PaulWWoodring [ Tue Jun 04, 2024 12:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: T&SF 4-6-4 #3463 managed by a group known as CSRAIL
If a commercial group wants to "experiment" on a steam locomotive, don't try and get the last remaining one of it's kind. There are a number of preserved CB&Q "Park" Hudsons in the Midwest that would be more suitable for this kind of project. Or if what they propose is that different and radical, then go the T1 Trust route, build new and get exactly what they want.
Author:  Patricio [ Tue Jun 04, 2024 1:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: T&SF 4-6-4 #3463 managed by a group known as CSRAIL
Damn that engine is in bad shape.
Why not offer it to any group with a strong record of bring it back to life. I'd rather see that loco join the 2 AT&SF steamers (a northern and a 2-10-4 at the California State RR Museum sitting in the yard and a waiting to be restored to lights, cameras, and action.
Author:  NJDixon [ Tue Jun 04, 2024 2:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: T&SF 4-6-4 #3463 managed by a group known as CSRAIL
PaulWWoodring wrote:
If a commercial group wants to "experiment" on a steam locomotive, don't try and get the last remaining one of it's kind. There are a number of preserved CB&Q "Park" Hudsons in the Midwest that would be more suitable for this kind of project. Or if what they propose is that different and radical, then go the T1 Trust route, build new and get exactly what they want.


I remember that was kind of what got people riled up. I forget the exact verbiage of the press release but it was something to the effect of they openly stated that they would heavily modify it to the point where it was unrecognizable to make the ultimate modern steam locomotive. And people were mad they were going to bastardize the last 3460 as part of this project. Also left people scratching their heads going "If the modifications are going to be that extensive, wouldn't it be easier to start with a new build and not have to undo decades of neglect and cram whatever these modifications are onto an existing design, thereby potentially compromising their effectiveness?"
Author:  Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Tue Jun 04, 2024 3:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: T&SF 4-6-4 #3463 managed by a group known as CSRAIL
choodude wrote:
It's pretty insulting to suggest that Davidson Ward could not handle rebuilding a steam locomotive.


I don't know a Davidson Ward from Donny Osmond.

You can throw all the talent in steam locomotive renovation in the world at a project, and that still doesn't exclude the possibility of financial, logistical, or public relations mismanagement.

Even folks out there with demonstrable "track records" can still run into serious problems not necessarily of their own making.
Author:  bigjim4life [ Tue Jun 04, 2024 3:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: T&SF 4-6-4 #3463 managed by a group known as CSRAIL
NJDixon wrote:
PaulWWoodring wrote:
If a commercial group wants to "experiment" on a steam locomotive, don't try and get the last remaining one of it's kind. There are a number of preserved CB&Q "Park" Hudsons in the Midwest that would be more suitable for this kind of project. Or if what they propose is that different and radical, then go the T1 Trust route, build new and get exactly what they want.


I remember that was kind of what got people riled up. I forget the exact verbiage of the press release but it was something to the effect of they openly stated that they would heavily modify it to the point where it was unrecognizable to make the ultimate modern steam locomotive. And people were mad they were going to bastardize the last 3460 as part of this project. Also left people scratching their heads going "If the modifications are going to be that extensive, wouldn't it be easier to start with a new build and not have to undo decades of neglect and cram whatever these modifications are onto an existing design, thereby potentially compromising their effectiveness?"


Who got riled up were the people of the city in one of those "not my locomotive" sort of deals: https://csrail.org/newsroom/2017/4/10/s ... -validated
Author:  choodude [ Tue Jun 04, 2024 3:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: T&SF 4-6-4 #3463 managed by a group known as CSRAIL
I understand some things that made that abandoned rotting hulk attractive for folks looking for the publicity a speed record would get are:

84 inch drivers -- PRR T 1' s only had 80 inch drivers.

300 psi working pressure boiler

Roller bearing axels all around

Designed to be easy to convert to coal burning and back.

Do any of the park engines hinted at have those things?

I suspect the front end as built would not be able to get steam in and out of the cylinders fast enough to make 130 MPH - so some modifications - the same kind that Santa Fe may have done if diseasals had not killed steam - would be logical.

I need to see the claim in writing "forget the exact verbiage of the press release but it was something to the effect of they openly stated that they would heavily modify it to the point where it was unrecognizable to make the ultimate modern steam locomotive.". All the modifications mentioned were reversible and in no way shape or form would have made 3463 unrecognizable as a steam engine. Unless you think the "Red Devil" is unrecognizable as a steam engine.

So as I understand it, it's better to let a park engine rot because even experienced experts might fail.

I'm pretty sure the pictures that have generated comments about how poorly the 3463 looks are after the initial stabilization efforts of CSI took place. 3463 will be yet another rotting park display in a decade or so.

Still, yet another episode of folks trying to spend other people's money.

But Hey! You won!!! CSR moved on to other things. Now 3463 has to justify a business case for spending the SIX figures it takes to be brought back to a steaming legendary locomotive excursion locomotive.

I'm sure CSR is holding their breath waiting for your check to clear.

For once in a lifetime, an abandoned, rotting hulk of a park locomotive did not have to justify the multiple million business case to be brought back to life. $&--¥^÷ו={√|×÷•√°√•={√π.

You may not have noticed, but renewable energy has gotten so cheap that "to cheap to meter" nuclear energy plants are closing. The whole justification of biofuel steam engines is dead as well.

THANK You!!



Brian Helfrich
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