Here is the line car.
Attachment:
IMG_4568.jpeg [ 49.49 KiB | Viewed 6246 times ]
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| CSS&SB "South Shore Line" Auto-Railer Line Car Question https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=48328 |
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| Author: | wesp [ Sat Sep 21, 2024 12:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | CSS&SB "South Shore Line" Auto-Railer Line Car Question |
Friends, I am working on documenting the history of Arlington & Fairfax 109, an Evans Auto-Railer recently acquired by our Museum. Roster notes in OLD DOMINION TROLLEY TWO list A&F 109 as being sold to South Shore as their line car #50. I know this is not trues because the number 109 is clearly visible in several locations on our car. Do any among you have a roster from South Shore Line that may give details about their Auto-Railer 50? I saw, but cannot re-find, a photo of number 50 alongside South Shore 1100. Many thanks! Wesley Paulson National Capital Trolley Museum |
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| Author: | wesp [ Sat Sep 21, 2024 2:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: CSS&SB "South Shore Line" Auto-Railer Line Car Question |
Here is the line car. Attachment: IMG_4568.jpeg [ 49.49 KiB | Viewed 6246 times ] |
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| Author: | PMC [ Sat Sep 21, 2024 7:29 pm ] | ||
| Post subject: | Re: CSS&SB "South Shore Line" Auto-Railer Line Car Question | ||
This is apparently an Al Chione photo, note "Fairfax": https://transphoto.org/photo/1063563/
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| Author: | wesp [ Sat Sep 21, 2024 7:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: CSS&SB "South Shore Line" Auto-Railer Line Car Question |
From the first photo, the car still has its platform and a roof beacon has been added. Can I assume the car lasted into tie late 1970s or early 1980s since it has the beacon? |
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| Author: | PMC [ Sat Sep 21, 2024 9:08 pm ] | ||
| Post subject: | Re: CSS&SB "South Shore Line" Auto-Railer Line Car Question | ||
https://southshorelinemuseum.org/#heritage-resources "The source for the material was the South Shore Line AFE book and equipment ledger. The AFE book was complete through 1947; the equipment ledger was complete through the end of CSX Corporation ownership. The AFE book and equipment ledger were purchased through a consignee of railroadiana located in the Midwest who was not associated with the Chicago, South Shore and South Bend Railroad or any other affiliated company." There isn't a lot there, but starting on line 2210 a car 50 is listed as line car-gasoline driven, car builder Evans Auto-railer, built 1937, ex-Arlington & Fairfax Ry.: https://southshorelinemuseum.org/wp-con ... edger.xlsx and https://towns-and-nature.blogspot.com/2 ... shops.html "Marty Bernard posted At CSS&SB Shops, Michigan City, IN, 12/26/1963 A "line bus" as opposed to a line car. Probably once used to fix the wire above street running and it could easily get out of the way of trains. But it had high-rail wheels too. Looks by the snow around it, it had not been used for awhile. My guess is that is Roger Puta and Rick Burn in the distance. Bob Harbison: Look closer... Highrail gear, not just street running. It went anywhere it needed to go. Bob Harris: This was an Arlington & Fairfax railbus. The South Shore Line bought it for the construction of the East Chicago Bypass. The South Shore Line equipment ledger shows that it was built by Evans in 1937. There is no retirement date from the South Shore Line listed in the ledger for this piece of equipment. Marty Bernard shared Mitch Markovitz: The "Fairfax." Purchased to do line work on the East Chicago relocation."
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| Author: | PMC [ Sat Sep 21, 2024 9:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: CSS&SB "South Shore Line" Auto-Railer Line Car Question |
We're still not certain it is #109, right, because the A&F had other Evans Auto-railers? Does your car have holes or patches on the roof where the beacon, platform etc. would have been mounted? |
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| Author: | wesp [ Sat Sep 21, 2024 9:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: CSS&SB "South Shore Line" Auto-Railer Line Car Question |
Our car roof is intact and clearly marked 109 in several places. |
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| Author: | PMC [ Sat Sep 21, 2024 9:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: CSS&SB "South Shore Line" Auto-Railer Line Car Question |
wesp wrote: Our car roof is intact and clearly marked 109 in several places. No, I mean that it isn't certain that #109 is the same car that ended up on the South Shore as their #50, right? |
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| Author: | wesp [ Sun Sep 22, 2024 7:22 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: CSS&SB "South Shore Line" Auto-Railer Line Car Question |
According to the roster in Old Dominion Trolley Too, three Auto-Railers were sold to Arcade & Attica by A&F: 102, 108, and 109. A&A then sold one of the three to CSS&SB where it was numbered 50. Roster notes in Old Dominion Trolley state 109 was the car sold. We know that note is incorrect because our Auto-Railer is clearly marked 109 and the original body has not been modified. The question on the floor is what was the A&A roster number of South Shore 50? ~Wesley |
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| Author: | BSOR Patarak [ Mon Sep 23, 2024 8:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: CSS&SB "South Shore Line" Auto-Railer Line Car Question |
I have a copy of the last monthly inspection and repair report issued on the Arcade & Attica for the #109. It is dated August, 1955. "Final Report - Locomotive Unit No. 109 was permanently retired from service on August 16, 1955, account of being sold to the Chicago, South Bend and South Shore Railroad Company, and will not be used again by this company." |
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| Author: | BSOR Patarak [ Mon Sep 23, 2024 9:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: CSS&SB "South Shore Line" Auto-Railer Line Car Question |
The 109 from Clark's does make me wonder. Is there any evidence of the line car additions from Chicago? Why was the 109 number applied to it if it isn't. Is there any evidence of the orange paint that should have covered the A&A marks? As for the cars that went to the A&A...I have not found too much in the way of proof of what numbers. Only the fact that they did indeed have several on the property. the Short Line Doodlebug, by Edmund Keilty has a roster stating that three A&F cars went to the A&A. This is probably the source of the thought that the A&A purchased 3 cars. I am not sure they did purchase them. I believe that they served more like a broker to move the cars to prospective buyers. 102 - some sources say "sold to Coudersport & Port Allegany". This one is photographed in front of A&A shops and was on the property at some point. Unknown ownership 107 - may have been Coudersport & Port Allegany. Picture on page 24 of Paul Pietrak C&PA book shows the 107 with a back baggage door added. Caption says outside of round house on C&PA. The building is brick and seems a pretty significant structure. Not sure that railroad had such a structure. I have also seen that picture on the internet with a different caption, stating that the car with the added door is sitting on the A&F. Guessing Pietrak book is incorrect. No idea if it went through Arcade, but side baggage door mentioned later in post. C&PA reported their car cut up in 1953 108 - Car listed as being in Arcade. I have no pictures of it there. This one was sold to the Narragansett Pier route in Rhode Island. (The Narragansett Pier had two different Evans cars. One suffered a fire in 1945 and was scrapped) 109 - Was owned and used by A&A until 1955 and was reported as sold off to CSS&SB #50. Any of the A&F cars the A&A were involved with were transferred beginning in May of 1940. The A&A board authorized the purchase of one car. The 102 seems to have been run on the line for inspection purposes. The 109 was definitely retained. A Buffalo Evening News clipping from February 28, 1941 states that the 102 car was in use at Arcade and a similar car was remodeled for the Narragansett Pier Railroad by addition of a baggage door. It mentions that the car was driven by highway from Arcade to Rhode Island. (This should be the 108. The addition of the baggage door makes me wonder about the 107 that went to the C&PA...though it may have had that added at A&F not A&A). There is a similar article in the Rochester Democrat and Chronicle, though I don't have the date of it. Now, speculation here, but the A&A's relationship to these cars may be related to WW2 and the US Government. Instead of total control of every railroad, many of the smaller roads were given tasks to help the war effort in different ways. The A&A General Manager was on the scrap disposition committee for the USRA. Anything that was to go to scrap in or around the A&A was made known to the A&A for possible disposition to other railroads that had a need. These cars seem a tad early for this possibility. I have found with other research with the A&A that they had a relationship with Morrison Railway Supply of Buffalo (a large scrap dealer who got into used railroad equipment sales and repair. The A&A tested an 0-6-2 tank engine that had been on the Grasse River. Ultimately it was not retained by the A&A, but they did buy used 70 lb rail through Morrison who acquired the locomotive and rail from Grasse River. This adds more speculation as to the identity of the Evans Autorailer that ended up on the Grasse. Is it related in anyway to any of the ones that rolled through Arcade? Is it really the CSS&SB #50/A&A109? Or another car that ended up with the 109 number? |
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| Author: | BSOR Patarak [ Mon Sep 23, 2024 9:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: CSS&SB "South Shore Line" Auto-Railer Line Car Question |
The A&A also tested an Evans Autorailer, Class E2 perhaps. I am unsure if this is the proper designation, but it was the version that looked more like a car with a trunk. The railroad found it to be too slow for their intended purpose and did not purchase it. The test run photo is in the Ed Lewis Arcade & Attica book. This was in May of 1940. I am guessing that the Evans company may have put the A&A onto the Arlington and Fairfax cars being available after the demonstration. |
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| Author: | Thomas Cornillie [ Tue Sep 24, 2024 2:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: CSS&SB "South Shore Line" Auto-Railer Line Car Question |
The South Shore Line Museum Project states that they have in their archives the South Shore Line authorization for expenditure (AFE) book and equipment ledger: https://southshorelinemuseum.org/#heritage-resources These documents may provide some leads, as the AFE will often have notes about equipment used in service, which include road numbers and other details. Another place to look for information is regulatory related to the Arlington & Fairfax. Dockets from the US Interstate Commerce Commission and state regulatory bodies will often include notes about equipment in evaluating fare increases and service changes or abandonment. Please update this thread as new information emerges. |
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| Author: | wesp [ Tue Sep 24, 2024 3:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: CSS&SB "South Shore Line" Auto-Railer Line Car Question |
BSOR Patarak wrote: I have a copy of the last monthly inspection and repair report issued on the Arcade & Attica for the #109. It is dated August, 1955. "Final Report - Locomotive Unit No. 109 was permanently retired from service on August 16, 1955, account of being sold to the Chicago, South Bend and South Shore Railroad Company, and will not be used again by this company." Do you also have copies of A&A inspection reports for the other Auto-Railer units? I wonder if A&A numbered a different A&F unit as A&A 109? This means there are in effect two 109s. A&F 109 that was at Clark’s is clearly marked 109 in several places in the same font as other Auto-Railers at A&F. The Clark/Trolley Museum vehicle bears no markings or modifications for the tower car 50. |
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| Author: | PMC [ Tue Sep 24, 2024 5:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: CSS&SB "South Shore Line" Auto-Railer Line Car Question |
Thomas Cornillie wrote: The South Shore Line Museum Project states that they have in their archives the South Shore Line authorization for expenditure (AFE) book and equipment ledger: https://southshorelinemuseum.org/#heritage-resources These documents may provide some leads, as the AFE will often have notes about equipment used in service, which include road numbers and other details. I believe this is it, an Excel spreadsheet that I posted above. Not much about #50, starting at line 2210: https://southshorelinemuseum.org/wp-con ... edger.xlsx If NCTM has not found any evidence of damage to the roof of #109 at all, or the floor where some sort of column could be mounted to the frame, then I doubt that #109 was the car sold to the South Shore. |
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