I no longer have a SL-SF steam locomotive spec and diagram book and am hoping that somebody here can please answer the following question...
Did the 1500 series Frisco 4-8-2 types have a combustion chamber ? If so, what was the length?

Any help appreciated, thanks.

Tom

They did, and it added 85' of direct heating surface.

There were drawings in the May 2003 Mainline Modeler magazine, which might have given the exact chamber length.

It might be possible to access 1522 in St. Louis and measure the chamber directly, if one of the 'knowledgeable' people here can't give you a number.

Thank you so much and I appreciate your time.

Tom

For some reason, four feet sticks in my mind. There is one syphon in the combustion chamber. Its been well over 20 years since I've been in 1522's firebox. I can tell you that the flues/tubes are 21' long. I'll have to poke around in my drawings and see if its called out.
I tried posting a diagram that I made "back in the day" but RYPN says it's too may pixels wide. Try as I may, I can't change that. Getting old isn't what its cracked up to be.

Don Wirth

Thanks for taking the time to respond Don. I am well aware of your relationship with 1522. What a machine and what a great stroke of fortune that being in the 3rd series of that class, she has even more weight on her drivers.

Between Baldwin and the Frisco, they really put a premium on adequate factor of adhesion. It really shows up with those heavy passenger consists that she coped with and hardly ever a slip.

Tom

1522 fooled a lot of folks as far as her power and ability to get down and lug. My first time running her on mainline was east out of Newburg, MO on the 1990 NRHS excursion.
She was well over what the old employee TT quoted as her tonnage rating up the 7 mile Rolla Hill. She settled in at 13-15 MPH and never missed a beat. I on the other hand was a nervous wreck but it ended well.
The only time during my time running her that I recall her slipping was when we hit a flange oiler or something near Crystal City, MO. I have had her work right down to a stall a couple of times.
What a gal.

According to steamlocomotive.com, the last ten engines had a combustion chamber. Then says that all had combustion chambers. But the tube length was the same. That website does not give combustion chamber lengths.

https://www.steamlocomotive.com/locobas ... lroad=slsf Engine stats are listed at the website.



Class T-54 (Locobase 223)
Data from table and diagram in 1930 Locomotive Cyclopedia and SL&SF 1930 Locomotive Diagrams supplied in May 2005 by Allen Stanley from his extensive Rail Data Exchange and DeGolyer, Volume 74, pp. 335+. See also "Frisco Begins 735 Mile One-Engine Run June 29", Frisco Employes [sic] Magazine, Volume IV, No. 11 (August 1927), p. 17. Works numbers were 56137 in January 1923; 56265-56278 in March; 58606-58610 in August 1925.

Firebox fitted with combustion chamber and thermic syphons. The boiler and firebox were very similar in size to that of Frisco 2-8-2s delivered by Baldwin in the same period. 1500-1514 burned oil fuel and used Baker valve gear. Steam was admitted through 14" (356 mm) piston valves. The combustion chamber contributed 95 sq ft (8.8 sq m) to direct heating surface.

A 1927 article in the "Employes" magazine described the recent decision to commit just one 1500 locomotive to the entire section of the Frisco's Florida train between its starting point in Kansas City and Birmingham, Ala. "Until 1925", the article noted, engines on that run "were changed with each change of crews, or five times during the 735 mile [1,183 km] journey." These locomotives were much smaller, weighing 137,300 lb and generating a "feeble 13,000 lb tractive effort." Locobase finds only two entries--Locobase 8563 and Locobase 8564--that fit the figures. These were 4-4-0 supplied by Alco's Dickson and Rhode Island works in 1902-1903.

An "exhaustive investigation and tests of the engine's ability and power" convinced Frisco to make the change to a single engine.

Frisco acknowledged that this long run was not unique even on this railroad. The Meteor was pulled by a single locomotive over the 542 miles (873 km) between Kansas City and Oklahoma City and the train connecting Kansas City and Fort Worth (590 miles/950 km) did likewise. (It's not clear if these two runs were both connected to the Meteor "brand" or if the engines were also 1500-class 4-8-2.) With respect to other long runs in the US, the most the Frisco could claim was that the latest such service was "as long or longer than any other railroad passenger run without change of engine, in the middle west."

Problems with the Baker gear (which were later cleared up, according to Don Wirth in January 1989 Railfan), led the Frisco to order the next five with Walschaerts gear in 1925 followed by the last ten, also with Walschaerts gear, 1926.

"Throughout their careers,"says Wirth, "...the 1500s were well liked by engine crews, dispatchers, and the motive power department. They were a true general-purpose locomotive, as well suited for use in hotshot freight service, fast passenger service, or even on the local." Some of their passenger runs were impressively long and included St Louis to Oklahoma City (542 miles/873 km) and Kansas City to Birmingham (737 miles/1,187 km) without engine change.

The last ten were completed to a different boiler and firebox design; see Locobase 15333.


Class T-54 (Locobase 15333)
Data from DeGolyer, Volume 74, pp. 373+. See also SL&SF 1930 and 1947 Locomotive Diagrams supplied in May 2005 by Allen Stanley from his extensive Rail Data Exchange. See also the excellent "Frequently Asked Questions About the Frisco 1522" on the NRHS's [link], last accessed 6 October 2019. (Thanks to Chris Hohl for his 18 August 2017 email noting some final-configuration details in the 1522, which last operated in exhibition service in 2002. His 6 March 2018 email supplied the link to [link] to confirm that only the trucks had roller bearings.) Works numbers were 59132-59134, 59169 in April 1926; 59198-59203 in May.

Locobase 223 describes the first twenty Baldwin Mountains that were delivered to the Frisco in 1923. The 1926 batch featured quite a few changes in the firebox and boilers. The firebox was fitted with combustion chamber and thermic syphons; the former contributed 89 sq ft (8.25 sq m) and the latter 84 sq ft (7.8 sq m). And the balance of tubes and flues shifted in favor of more large-diameter flues and, in this case at least, more superheater area. Fourteen-inch (356 mm) piston valves delivered steam to the cylinders.

These ten were delivered with Sellers injectors and were coal burners, trailing tenders carrying 17 short tons of coal (15.45 metric tons) and weighing 240,500 lb (109,089 kg). They were soon converted to oil firing with Chicago injectors. Their 1930 tenders held 4,500 US gallons (17,033 litres) of oil that weighed 233,120 lb (105,742 kg).

The Frisco diagrams from 1947 show a superheating surface of 1,222 sq ft (113.5 sq m). Hohl notes that 1522, like the others in its class, set its boiler at 210 psi. Her drivers turned in friction bearings and measured 69 1/2" (1,765 mm). She used a trailing truck booster that generated 8,750 lb (3,970 kg).

In either version, the 1500s were highly regarded by their crews and served the Frisco throughout the steam era.

In the June 1923 issue of the Railway Mechanical Engineering, page 357, in an article on the 1500's, it states that they had a combustion chamber. But it no length is given.


https://books.google.com/books?id=05lMA ... &q&f=false


Tom Hamilton

As a heads-up, the figure for chamber heating surface I posted originally was taken from steamlocomotive.com, and I suspect it is incorrect in detail (they listed, or I misunderstood, the heating surface of the chamber circulator (given as 84 square feet in the detail copied over from the site) vs. 85 square feet for the chamber area in their table. I confess that I thought this was a ridiculously small area for a 4-8-2 cvombustion chamber, but went ahead and posted it.

I wonder if we can estimate the 'length' by looking at boiler OD, inner and outer wrapper plate thickness, and the waterspace in the chamber. Those dimensions might be 'known' or recoverable from experience...

Depending on how close you need the information to be, you could measure off of this https://www.castlesimon.com/locomotive/themes/Frisco1522/References/1522ErectingCard.png

Roger

Well, doesn't that answer Tom's questioh definitively!

There is a dimension given from the rear tubesheet to a position slightly back of the tapered throat into the chamber: 4' 1.5"

That would give you the necessary scaling factor to determine any length from the rear tubesheet to any determined part of the chamber as drawn...

I thank all who contributed here, I learned a lot.

As I said, I have a great respect for the Frisco and it's input on new locomotive construction.

I fired 4960 a fair amount in the summer of 1999. I always felt that she benefitted from the 30" combustion chamber that she was built with. A lot of my interest here stems from my 28 plus years with stationary steam, that at Std. Oil/Chevron in Richmond, CA. We had a 800 lb. Power Plant that ran for weeks on end with all 7 boilers steaming at a total rate of 1,060,000 lbs. steam/hour.

I dropped that plan into CAD and scaled it. The measurement from the front of the front sheet of the firebox to the front of the combustion chamber came out 3'-9 3/8".

Scaling from hand drawn plans is usually pretty close but never 100% accurate.

Roger

3'9" is the correct answer according to the erection card I have but RYPN won't let me share for some reason. The 3/8" is OK either way. Flues/tubes 21'0" long.

OK, this diagram doesn't give combustion chamber size,
Looking at the erection card, it is 3'-9 long.