Railway Preservation News :: View topic - LIMA Superpower 2-8-4 number A1; small mystery

Is the plaque shown in the linked photo? I can only make out casting numbers on the header casing but nothing on the plaque. Initially, I thought it might indicate the number of tubes in each quadrant, but it doesn't make sense to have unequal numbers, and I don't see how they could fit 50 in one quadrant. By 1929, a heater for a large locomotive (#7 heater?) could have 156 5/8" tubes (39 / quad). I'm certain that has nothing to do with the info on the plaque. I suspect the plaque in the photo has company and patent data and there doesn't appear to be a diamond-star plaque on the front, although it could be obscured. Could the numbers in question have something to do with the theoretical volume of condensate to be collected from engine and auxiliary exhaust and returned to the tender?
***Here is the link I forgot to paste:
https://ohiomemory.org/digital/collecti ... 2/id/8458/

Author:	Les Beckman [ Fri Jan 03, 2025 2:28 pm ]
Post subject:	LIMA Superpower 2-8-4 number A1; small mystery
One of the members at our museum asked a question for which I did not have an answer. When 2-8-4 # A-1 rolled out of the Lima Shop back in December of 1924, on the cylindrical Elesco feedwater heater up on the "brow" of the engine's smokebox, it had a star enclosed in a diamond in the center of the Elesco and on the right side a "plaque" which listed the following numbers: 10 25 50 20 ___ 105 I have not been able to figure out what these numbers signified and can't find any printed references to them. Anyone know? Thanks! Les

Author:	Adam Phillips [ Fri Jan 03, 2025 7:22 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: LIMA Superpower 2-8-4 number A1; small mystery
Is the plaque shown in the linked photo? I can only make out casting numbers on the header casing but nothing on the plaque. Initially, I thought it might indicate the number of tubes in each quadrant, but it doesn't make sense to have unequal numbers, and I don't see how they could fit 50 in one quadrant. By 1929, a heater for a large locomotive (#7 heater?) could have 156 5/8" tubes (39 / quad). I'm certain that has nothing to do with the info on the plaque. I suspect the plaque in the photo has company and patent data and there doesn't appear to be a diamond-star plaque on the front, although it could be obscured. Could the numbers in question have something to do with the theoretical volume of condensate to be collected from engine and auxiliary exhaust and returned to the tender? ***Here is the link I forgot to paste: https://ohiomemory.org/digital/collecti ... 2/id/8458/

Author:	Les Beckman [ Fri Jan 03, 2025 10:29 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: LIMA Superpower 2-8-4 number A1; small mystery
Adam - I don't see your linked photo. The shot I have seen is of the 2-8-4 rolling out of the Shop doors at Lima and was taken from the front end. I can't post that shot here on RyPN because it is too large and I can't figure out how to reduce it. I have seen a photo of the A-1 demonstrating on the C&NW in 1926 with the "star in diamond" metal plaque still in place on the Elesco heater but the plaque in question, no longer on the loco at that particular time. Les

Author:	Adam Phillips [ Sat Jan 04, 2025 2:13 am ]
Post subject:	Re: LIMA Superpower 2-8-4 number A1; small mystery
I added the link in my previous post. I found the C&NW photo. Reminds me of T&P 600s, which also debuted in 1925. Here is a link: https://www.lakestatesarchive.org/Holma ... -9VNmvrH/A

Author:	joe6167 [ Sat Jan 04, 2025 6:23 am ]
Post subject:	Re: LIMA Superpower 2-8-4 number A1; small mystery
Les Beckman wrote: Adam - I don't see your linked photo. The shot I have seen is of the 2-8-4 rolling out of the Shop doors at Lima and was taken from the front end. I can't post that shot here on RyPN because it is too large and I can't figure out how to reduce it. I have seen a photo of the A-1 demonstrating on the C&NW in 1926 with the "star in diamond" metal plaque still in place on the Elesco heater but the plaque in question, no longer on the loco at that particular time. Les Les, open the file in "Paint" and just hit the "resize" button. Just make sure the file is under 500 KB to upload it on RYPN. Just play with the resize percentage until you get it to 499 KB. No need to put some microscopic image on RYPN, just make sure it under 500 KB.

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LIMA Superpower 2-8-4 number A1; small mystery https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=48475	Page 1 of 1

Author:	Overmod [ Sat Jan 04, 2025 12:31 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: LIMA Superpower 2-8-4 number A1; small mystery
It was my understanding that the 'star in diamond' was kind of like the badge for 'Lima SuperPower -- the diamond referencing the Lima builder's plate. Did anyone look at the drawings in that kid's book on the A-1 Berk to see if the numbers in question on the end of the heater vessel were shown? My speculation is that these represent some measure of heating surface in stages of the FWH (not percent, as they are all in coarse multiples of 5 and don't add to 100"%" -- someone might look at a diagram of the internal construction of the heater and see if the numbers match surface or heat gain for 'passes' within the device. (See p.356 in the '47 Cyc directly above the coil-heater drawing I mentioned in the thread on Southern Ry. locomotives.)

Author:	Adam Phillips [ Sat Jan 04, 2025 3:02 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: LIMA Superpower 2-8-4 number A1; small mystery
I gave all my books away but here is a link to a scan of an operation and maintenance manual: https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id= ... 4301&seq=1

Author:	Les Beckman [ Sun Jan 05, 2025 1:29 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: LIMA Superpower 2-8-4 number A1; small mystery
Adam Phillips wrote: Is the plaque shown in the linked photo? I can only make out casting numbers on the header casing but nothing on the plaque. Initially, I thought it might indicate the number of tubes in each quadrant, but it doesn't make sense to have unequal numbers, and I don't see how they could fit 50 in one quadrant. By 1929, a heater for a large locomotive (#7 heater?) could have 156 5/8" tubes (39 / quad). I'm certain that has nothing to do with the info on the plaque. I suspect the plaque in the photo has company and patent data and there doesn't appear to be a diamond-star plaque on the front, although it could be obscured. Could the numbers in question have something to do with the theoretical volume of condensate to be collected from engine and auxiliary exhaust and returned to the tender? ***Here is the link I forgot to paste: https://ohiomemory.org/digital/collecti ... 2/id/8458/ Okay Adam, I've now seen your linked photo. Although it shows the A-1 in the final steps to completion, the "star in diamond" and the "metal number plaque" have not yet been added to the Elesco. Perhaps these numbers on the metal plaque (as has been suggested) pertain to the heating surface of the feedwater heater, and not to the locomotive itself. Perhaps that is true. If so, what does each number pertain to? If not, we still haven't solved the mystery. Les

Author:	Adam Phillips [ Mon Jan 06, 2025 2:36 am ]
Post subject:	Re: LIMA Superpower 2-8-4 number A1; small mystery
"If so, what does each number pertain to?" Les, I really don't know. I'm throwing spaghetti against the wall to see if anything sticks. If I knew, or had a better guess, I would share it. I suspect there are other Superheater Co/Elesco manuals or in-house engineering documents which would guide selection of proper equipment for particular applications. I wouldn't be surprised if Elesco ran an advertisement in one of the trade magazines of the time plugging their contribution to Lima's successful new locomotive. I also wouldn't be surprised if there is absolutely nothing left in print with the answer. If only we could speak with Mr. C. A. Brandt, Chief Engineer of the Superheater Company. It is intriguing.

Author:	Stationary Engineer [ Tue Jan 07, 2025 7:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: LIMA Superpower 2-8-4 number A1; small mystery
As far as the star in the diamond goes, the illustrated book on the A-1, "Superpower The making of a steam locomotive" only states that William Woodard designed it. And nothing about the numbers. The commonality between Lima and Elesco was that Joel S. Coffin owned them. The other associated companies were Franklin Railway Supply and the Supper Heater Company, which owned Elesco and Sellers. I looked; the Coffin feedwater heater was made by the J. R. Coffin Company. Tom Hamilton

Author:	Overmod [ Wed Jan 08, 2025 12:28 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: LIMA Superpower 2-8-4 number A1; small mystery
The Coffin story in railroad auxiliary systems is interesting. I grew up in Englewood, New Jersey, and had no idea he lived there and centered his 'empire' there. The Superheater Company was also the Locomotive Superheater Company, with Schmidt as a principal. and "Elesco" stands for "L S Co." (See the origin of "Melesco" also)

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