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 Post subject: "New" diesel for the East Broad Top
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2025 4:51 pm 

Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2021 4:36 pm
Posts: 308
Taken from the EBT's Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/ebtrr/posts/pfbid02i5i9bKcz2j3qSSoZcRCgPjZqPLFBxs3MyBerTdVdpdCvaqHy4t4erBARSzyh7NL1l

"Even on a 1:1 scale model railroad... kits arrive with some assembly required.
Sharp-eyed railfans in the Rocky Mountains have already spotted a narrow-gauge diesel locomotive making its way east from Durango, Colorado! The first component arrived this morning, with the rest of our newly acquired engine expected later this week. As part of the deal, a trade of two EBT hopper cars was included—so on its return trip, the truck will be delivering EBT hopper #951 to Durango. Stay tuned for more official updates as the week unfolds! "

Those on the internet have already determined that the truck belongs to Durango & Silverton 1203, the 1947-built H.K. Porter 6-axle endcab that has done time on US Gypsum, Huckleberry Railroad, Georgetown Loop, and D&SNG.

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 Post subject: Re: "New" diesel for the East Broad Top
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2025 6:21 am 

Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2015 5:55 pm
Posts: 2600
This was quoted on the NG forum fifteen or so years ago, Tim Bain writing in the Colorado Timetable newsletter of the oughts: "In 1946. The Pacific Portland Cement Company was selling their Plaster City Gypsum mine and narrow gauge railway in southern California to the United States Gypsum Company.

In anticipation of this purchase, the new owners began a search in 1945 for a new diesel engine to replace the aging, narrow gauge steam power that came with the purchase. On January 3, 1946 U.S. Gypsum received a proposal from Porter for a new diesel-electric locomotive. U.S. Gypsum place an order for the new locomotive at a cost of $69,855.

In 1979 U.S. Gypsum was in the market for newer and larger locomotives. Because of this, they considered their Porter Locomotive #1203 expendable and put it up for sale.

At this point a group of businessmen lead by Albert Horn, a lawyer from California obtained #1203 for around $25,000. Then they offered to loan it to the Huckleberry Railway so on November 24th the Porter Locomotive was loaded on an S.P. flatcar #85202 and shipped to her new home in Flint, Michigan.

For a many years to follow, #1203 continued to serve the needs of the Huckleberry Railway until one day (Aug 1990) when the locomotive threw a piston rod out through the side of the engine block. With no real need for #1203 anymore, the Huckleberry Ry. pushed it out behind their shop and forgot about it.

In February of 2005, the Colorado Historical Society (CHS) purchased the #1203 for use on the Georgetown Loop Railway. They also hired the Sumpter Valley to move it and rebuild it. So the SVRy sent their employees, Jerry Huck, Scott Hutton and myself to Flint, Michigan to pull the #1203 out of the weeds and move it to Oregon.

By October 2007, the rebuild was completed, and the 1203 was shipped to Colorado in May 2008. Ever since then, it has been the regular engine pulling the Loop's train."

It ended up on the D&SNG after GL. It is to be used in work train service by EBT. It reportedly is the oldest existing six-axle diesel locomotive built for domestic use (i.e., not counting the Alcos built for overseas use). Two photos, Jerry Day (click to expand).


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 Post subject: Re: "New" diesel for the East Broad Top
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2025 9:26 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:55 pm
Posts: 1070
Location: Warren, PA
I've followed this one around more than I care to admit, going back to the Marty Knox era on Huckleberry when he showed me the hole in the block and the memorable quote "big enough to throw a cat through". It's truly a one of a kind, and think of it as a Brand X GE-70 ton with six axles.

I'd heard, but would want confirmed, that DSNG got rid of the troublesome Cooper-Bessemer FWL-6T (second block replacement) and replaced it with an Alco 251-6 family powerplant. Saw it out at Durango a couple years ago.

Georgetown had a couple cuts that were just a hair tight and had to be widened, shouldn't be a problem on the EBT, they were used to using standard gauge transfer cars.


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 Post subject: Re: "New" diesel for the East Broad Top
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2025 12:02 pm 

Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2021 4:36 pm
Posts: 308
And it's arrived. Interesting that they plan to number it 19 and not M-8

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 Post subject: Re: "New" diesel for the East Broad Top
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2025 6:34 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2015 5:55 pm
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https://www.facebook.com/ebtrr/posts/pf ... nDZbsAXZQl
"East Broad Top Railroad
7h
For Immediate Release:
The East Broad Top Railroad Acquires Historic Diesel Locomotive
Rockhill Furnace, PA - The East Broad Top Railroad is proud to announce the acquisition of a unique 1946 diesel locomotive from the Durango & Silverton Narrow Gauge Railroad in Durango, Colorado. Built by H.K. Porter Inc. in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, this 80-ton locomotive will provide crucial backup power for the EBT’s steam locomotives and support the EBT Foundation’s expansion efforts.
“The acquisition of this locomotive boosts our capacity for efficient operations,” said EBT Foundation General Manager Brad Esposito. “While the restoration and operation of our historic steam locomotives remains the Foundation’s primary focus, the growth of our business and expansion of our footprint demands greater flexibility in our motive power.”
Currently numbered 1203, the locomotive has a storied past. Having first served in Plaster City, California on US Gypsum’s industrial railroad until 1979, it later worked for several of America’s most iconic 36” gauge tourist railroads before being traded to the Durango & Silverton in 2015. The EBT plans to renumber the Locomotive as #19 and repaint it to fit the railroad’s historic character.
“While there are many narrow-gauge railroads around the world, 36” gauge presents unique technical challenges in sourcing locomotives,” offered EBT Foundation President Henry Posner III. “In this case, we were lucky in that the Durango & Silverton had this one-of-a-kind locomotive available. As a Pittsburgher, it will be good to have the locomotive back home in Pennsylvania.”
The East Broad Top’s current 55-ton diesel, M-7 — originally built in 1964 as a plant switcher for the Algoma Steel Mill — has proven to be a reliable workhorse. As the railroad’s operations grow, its capacity no longer meets the increasing demand. The M-7 has undoubtedly secured its place in EBT history and will continue to support the Foundation’s ambitious expansion projects, including the nine-mile track extension known as the “March to Saltillo.”
“The Durango & Silverton Narrow Gauge Railroad has greatly enjoyed seeing the East Broad Top’s remarkable progress in preservation and railroad operations,” added Durango and Silverton General Manager Jeff Johnson. “We are thankful that this equipment transfer is a win-win for both of our railroads, and we wish the greatest success for the EBT in the years ahead.”
The EBT Foundation would like to thank the Durango and Silverton for their collaboration on this project. Their partnership reflects a shared dedication to preserving America’s narrow-gauge railroad heritage.
#ebtrr #eastbroadtop"


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 Post subject: Re: "New" diesel for the East Broad Top
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2025 12:57 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3969
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
It's an interesting unit for sure.

I'll add that the US Gypsum's two GE units that worked with this one are still around, and are also still in service on the Georgetown Loop.

Regarding the unit being renumbered to 19 for service on the EBT, I seem to recall that the road had considered dieselization in the early 1950s, but the price of three diesels (GEs, I think), plus a parts supply and training for the mechanics, was considered too high for the road--which means it ended its operations as it had started, in steam.

Which brings up the question, what would EBT have bought, and what numbers would those three units have worn? Finally, just for fun, how would these units have been painted? Would they have been in a functional black scheme, or would they have had something more colorful?


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 Post subject: Re: "New" diesel for the East Broad Top
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2025 11:33 am 

Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:54 am
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Location: New Franklin, OH
Quote:
Which brings up the question, what would EBT have bought, and what numbers would those three units have worn? Finally, just for fun, how would these units have been painted? Would they have been in a functional black scheme, or would they have had something more colorful?


I'd wager 6-axles from GE if they had the money. And black for economics - most of EBT was black. Why spend money unnecessarily on additional colors of pigment? Black hides coal dust well.

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 Post subject: Re: "New" diesel for the East Broad Top
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2025 3:18 pm 

Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 5:45 pm
Posts: 294
I'm more of a streetcar person, only somewhat familiar with diesel electric. It's a six axled locomotive, how many axles are powered?

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 Post subject: Re: "New" diesel for the East Broad Top
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2025 4:25 pm 

Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:54 am
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Location: New Franklin, OH
IIRC, GE was building with C-C trucks - all axles powered. Wouldn't make sense for A-1-A trucks unless your track was total trash.

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 Post subject: Re: "New" diesel for the East Broad Top
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2025 5:35 pm 

Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2021 4:36 pm
Posts: 308
jayrod wrote:
Quote:
Which brings up the question, what would EBT have bought, and what numbers would those three units have worn? Finally, just for fun, how would these units have been painted? Would they have been in a functional black scheme, or would they have had something more colorful?


I'd wager 6-axles from GE if they had the money. And black for economics - most of EBT was black. Why spend money unnecessarily on additional colors of pigment? Black hides coal dust well.


I could also see them using the dark green from the passenger cars. Dark green with the orange lettering would be sharp, kind of like the WP's Perlman Green livery.


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 Post subject: Re: "New" diesel for the East Broad Top
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2025 5:47 pm 

Joined: Sat Mar 02, 2013 3:33 pm
Posts: 139
The paint looks pretty fresh, so why bother repainting the unit? It looks sharp. Just re-letter it. Good paint costs money, folks!


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 Post subject: Re: "New" diesel for the East Broad Top
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2025 10:27 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3969
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
Andy Nold wrote:
I'm more of a streetcar person, only somewhat familiar with diesel electric. It's a six axled locomotive, how many axles are powered?


Looking at this roster from Pacific Coast Narrow Gauge for the United States Gypsum railroad, it looks like No. 1203 is a C-C unit (six axles, all powered). It was apparently built as an export unit but was diverted.

https://www.pacificng.com/template.php? ... roster.htm

It is interesting that this unit seems to have two of its traction motors within the truck, but one outside axle had the motor rigged beyond the truck, sort of an outrigger arrangement. This would undoubtedly have kept the wheelbase a bit shorter, and would also have avoided having a truck with an unequal axle spacing, something you would see on Alco and Baldwin "Tri-mount" trucks.


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 Post subject: Re: "New" diesel for the East Broad Top
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2025 10:31 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3969
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
Another thought coming to mind--

As noted, I think the EBT was considering a purchase of three units--but would they have all been narrow gauge? Might one of them have been a standard gauge unit for work at Mount Union, with only two for service on the narrow gauge section?

Oh, my own speculation--speculation--is that all three would have been variants of a 70-tonner, possibly all four axle units. I have a feeling the EBT's track then was good enough that it didn't need extra axles to spread out the weight.

EDIT--I think this might have been the most logical choice. Two 70 tonners or something of similar size would weigh about 280,000 lbs., all of it on drivers. That would be far more than any of the Mikes the road had, and would be more than sufficient for any trains the EBT would have been running. Indeed a single unit could probably replace and outpull even one of the three big engines.

Of course, the traffic collapsed anyway, so the gains in productivity wouldn't have done much to keep the road alive.


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 Post subject: Re: "New" diesel for the East Broad Top
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2025 4:08 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3969
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
I should look things up first instead of relying on apparently foggy memory!!

In this case, I went into my basement and took out my copy of "East Broad Top" by Lee Rainey and Frank Kyper. In that book, the EBT had two proposals from General Electric.

The first one, from 1953, called for four narrow gauge units of 600 hp. and weighing 80 tons each, plus a comparable standard gauge unit for service at Mount Union. Based on weights and capability, I think the narrow gauge units would have been based on the 70 tonner model GE sold, and would have been on C-C trucks, much like the Porter that's been acquired, while the standard gauge unit would have been on B-B trucks. At a price of $106,000 per unit (or $530,000 total), this would have been a serious issue for a railroad that had an income of $500,000 per year.

The second proposal was from 1955. By this time traffic was dropping off rapidly, as coal customers began buying coal from other suppliers that had better geology and more productive mining techniques, plus the general decline of coal for purposes like home heating. This second proposal, written while considering the already reduced operations, called for two 550 hp. 65 ton center cab units for narrow gauge service (probably on B-B trucks), and a stock 35 ton (single truck) standard gauge unit for work at Mount Union. The price was a much more attractive $175,000 for all three units, but the management decided maybe the writing was on the wall, and went in for abandonment instead.

One wonders how long the road would have held on even with the second proposal; my guess is it wouldn't have made that much of a difference.

In any event, the road closed only about a year later, and thankfully Mr. Kovalchik stepped in to keep the little coal hauler intact.


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 Post subject: Re: "New" diesel for the East Broad Top
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2025 6:12 pm 

Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2015 5:00 pm
Posts: 36
Had the EBT decided to go with one of the GE proposals, certainly the steam engines, including the two Mt Union switchers, would have been scrapped to help pay for the new engines. What would have survived today may have been a very different narrow gauge.


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