Disclaimer out of the way first: The B&O Fair list is STILL tentative, and we may see more surprises added soon............

Some people may look at the list presented by the B&O Museum and decry the lack of any "substantial" steam motive power appearing (the biggest being a lightweight 2-8-0). To those people, I challenge: Name a "big" steam locomotive RUNNING right now!

Look over the status list:
PRR 1361: Still under repair.
Reading 2102: Needs overhaul, ain't worth it for the Fair alone.
Chessie 614: Ditto.
Reading 2100: No doubt expired flue time and other woes.
The old SR/N&W excursion fleet: All honorably retired or still under rebuild.

Who does that leave? SP 4449, which probably can't fit..... the UP locos--ditto plus their own work..... SP&S 700 (too far)....... Milwaukee 261 (who is still trying to come, but based on their last eastern junket, I wouldn't advise it!)...... and *maybe* Ohio Central 6325 (not ruled out yet).....

If you were looking for big steam, bemoan the CFR 230 regs and the insurance crisis, not the B&O Museum.

However, the one thing I *will* grouse about--and again, *not* the B&O Museum's fault--is the relative lack of participation by nearby excursion operations. Surely, if they desired to or could manage to, we should have expected in the lineup:
*WMSR 734 (diesels can pinch-hit on Helmstetter's for the week or two)
*Strasburg (what, can't spare 90 or 475 to fly the Strasburg flag?)
*Wilmington & Western (PRR doodlebug 4662 is supposed to be FRA compliant, even if 98 isn't running in time... And if CSX were cooperative, it'd be a day trip!)
*Steamtown (Okay, the operable locos are Canadian--but send *something* down.....)

I will be the first to concede that there are a plethora of factors influencing the decisions (money, uncooperative railroads, etc.). But if the tourist railroad industry as a whole does not at least attempt to show a very public face at an event like this (and they might yet, just not with equipment), then I dare say that we don't really have a tourist railroad industry.


lner4472@bcpl.net

Beg to differ on a couple of these, and I think you are leaving out a very important Midwest locomotive that IS operable:

OC 6325, (or any OC steam): according to an e-mail most of us on the 6325 list got a couple of days ago, things fell through on 6325, and she is not coming. Maybe a miracle has happened, and I'm the first to hope it does, but my guess is that it isn't likely going past Mingo Junction....

PM 1225: Everything I have heard is that currently things for her going are a positive. If something is different in that department its news to me, but maybe Aarne or some of the other MSTRP guys could answer better than myself. Maybe I'm wrong, but I consider a 2-8-4 big steam!

True, many may not be able to come, but if 1225 goes, expect my wife, my son, and myself to be part of the crew chasing her to Baltimore.....

I do not claim to have any other info that someone doesn't have; just thought the aboves were givens! Of course nothing is a given in this insurance environment.....

> Disclaimer out of the way first: The B&O
> Fair list is STILL tentative, and we may see
> more surprises added soon............

> Some people may look at the list presented
> by the B&O Museum and decry the lack of
> any "substantial" steam motive
> power appearing (the biggest being a
> lightweight 2-8-0). To those people, I
> challenge: Name a "big" steam
> locomotive RUNNING right now!

> Look over the status list:
> PRR 1361: Still under repair.
> Reading 2102: Needs overhaul, ain't worth it
> for the Fair alone.
> Chessie 614: Ditto.
> Reading 2100: No doubt expired flue time and
> other woes.
> The old SR/N&W excursion fleet: All
> honorably retired or still under rebuild.

> Who does that leave? SP 4449, which probably
> can't fit..... the UP locos--ditto plus
> their own work..... SP&S 700 (too
> far)....... Milwaukee 261 (who is still
> trying to come, but based on their last
> eastern junket, I wouldn't advise it!)......
> and *maybe* Ohio Central 6325 (not ruled out
> yet).....

> If you were looking for big steam, bemoan
> the CFR 230 regs and the insurance crisis,
> not the B&O Museum.

> However, the one thing I *will* grouse
> about--and again, *not* the B&O Museum's
> fault--is the relative lack of participation
> by nearby excursion operations. Surely, if
> they desired to or could manage to, we
> should have expected in the lineup:
> *WMSR 734 (diesels can pinch-hit on
> Helmstetter's for the week or two)
> *Strasburg (what, can't spare 90 or 475 to
> fly the Strasburg flag?)
> *Wilmington & Western (PRR doodlebug
> 4662 is supposed to be FRA compliant, even
> if 98 isn't running in time... And if CSX
> were cooperative, it'd be a day trip!)
> *Steamtown (Okay, the operable locos are
> Canadian--but send *something* down.....)

> I will be the first to concede that there
> are a plethora of factors influencing the
> decisions (money, uncooperative railroads,
> etc.). But if the tourist railroad industry
> as a whole does not at least attempt to show
> a very public face at an event like this
> (and they might yet, just not with
> equipment), then I dare say that we don't
> really have a tourist railroad industry.


Port Huron Museum
tjgaffney@phmuseum.org

Both 1225 and NKP 765 have been high on the "rumor list" for ages now. Mind you, the rumor lists have included the SP Pacifics and stuff as wild as BCR 2860.

The biggest indicators, however, should be public or even "insider" fundraising or negotiations to bring whatever equipment to Baltimore. Thus far, only 261 has *publicly* passed the hat. Mind you, if someone wants to pay for CP 2839's rebuilding and plaster her with billboards for, say, Orchard Supply & Hardware, don't let me stop them.

lner4472@bcpl.net

You may be suprised at which steam locomotives are going to make the trek to Baltimore. I can tell you that it is true that 261 is in and the OC and B&O Museum could'nt come to an agreement. As for the rest I will let that be a suprise.

William W. Gray

lumpy72@msn.com

> Milwaukee 261 (who is still
> trying to come, but based on their last
> eastern junket, I wouldn't advise it!)......

Alexander,
I am confused concerning the statement you made about the #261 and "their last eastern junket"... Do you mean Steamtown or the New River Trains? I hope that I am not taking anything out of context but would you care to elaborate on your seemingly negative perception of Milwaukee Rd #261?
Don C.


milw261@comcast.net

> I am confused concerning the statement you
> made about the #261 and "their last
> eastern junket"... Do you mean
> Steamtown or the New River Trains? I hope
> that I am not taking anything out of context
> but would you care to elaborate on your
> seemingly negative perception of Milwaukee
> Rd #261?

Meaning the 1995 junket to Steamtown, where she spent the winter there. Although I'm now reasonably sure there was no danger of 261 being stranded in Pa., I'm sure the trip left many with the impression (right or wrong) that 261 had to earn the necessary monies to get back home once she got to Steamtown.

lner4472@bcpl.net

A few comments on the 261...

A good portion of expenses for the trip to Steamtown were underwritten by, among others, Trains Magazine and the Steamtown Grand Opening Committie (a seperate fudraising organization). There are two main reasons the 261 stayed as long as it did, longer than the planned 3 months.

1. A friendly and lucrative operating climate, namely the Delaware-Lackawanna's Pocono mainline and the Canadian Pacific's Delaware and Hudson. These were untapped markets for "Big Steam" at the time, and trips proved very successful.

2. A first class work space, namely the Steamtown National Historic Site shops. A good deal of work was performed that had not been (including a great deal of wheel work) since the locomotive was in regular service. I know at least one or two of the train set cars were painted in Scranton as well.

All in all I think most will attest that the eastern trips were a sucess given the usual trials and tribulations of running mainline steam.

Too bad I missed those snow trips in the Poconos in February of 1996, I was too busy enjoying the 85 degree temps of Miami at the time...

Dave Crosby


bing@epix.net

If W&W #98 could be ready by then she would be sure to steal the show not matter what other steam made it to Baltimore. The PRR #4662 has ventured out on mainline rails as far as Harrington, Delaware in the past. I doubt you will ever see NS allow that to happen but Conrail did and it was great.

In the 60's and 70's there were B&O trips with E-8's and RDCs from Baltimore to Wilmngton where riders transfered to the W&W train for a ride up the Red Clay Valley. There is one to think about!

Tom Gears
Wimington, DE

tgears1@comcast.net

> Alexander, given that one engine backs up the other would be bad enough..

But friction bearings and federal ownership (paperwork, budget issues, etc.) make it almost impossible to take those engines that far.

superheater@rrmail.com

> Meaning the 1995 junket to Steamtown, where
> she spent the winter there. Although I'm now
> reasonably sure there was no danger of 261
> being stranded in Pa., I'm sure the trip
> left many with the impression (right or
> wrong) that 261 had to earn the necessary
> monies to get back home once she got to
> Steamtown.

Alexander,
So you are saying that the locomotive stayed longer than was anticipated at Steamtown? Gosh, if the East is really as steam-starved as everyone contends, then I would think that the longer the locomotive stayed, the happier the fans would be. It seems that it allowed for many people to experience a steam powered freight, passenger trains and snow plow run that might not have otherwise happened. And what other visiting locomotives made it to the Grand Opening....B&MR #425? Any other "big" locomotives make it...particularly from that far?

I think Mr. Crosby hit the nail on the head concerning the benefit both parties (FO261 and Steamtown) enjoyed by having the locomotive stay a little longer. The climate in the Midwest (other than the WC) for steam operations was relatively poor at the time, so what was the hurry to get home to the Midwest?

As for "advising" the #261 and crew that they shouldn't go to Baltimore based on a perception of incidents that occurred six or seven years ago, I think it is bad advice. No offense, just the input from a #261 crew member who volunteers volumes of time to an organization and operation that is way too under-rated. Thanks for the clarification.

Don C.

milw261@comcast.net

> In the 60's and 70's there were B&O
> trips with E-8's and RDCs from Baltimore to
> Wilmngton where riders transfered to the
> W&W train for a ride up the Red Clay
> Valley. There is one to think about!

> Tom Gears
> Wimington, DE

I recall riding one of these trips with RDC's when I was a child. I remember the W&W had a couple of open gons in their train but it poured rain that day, so I think we rode in the caboose. We must have boarded either in Washington, DC, or Silver Spring, MD, because I think the excursion was a fund-raiser for the National Capital Trolley Museum.

Alan Maples
Alan Maples


AMaples@aol.com

> Alexander,
> So you are saying that the locomotive stayed
> longer than was anticipated at Steamtown?

*I don't know. Did it, or was the plan for the loco to spend all that time in Scranton? I don't ever recall a plan explicitly stating, "261 will stay at Steamtown through the winter, working specifically advertised Steamtown runs and several planned photo specials to give the Eastern fans a chance to enjoy her presence before she goes home next spring..." It just seems that what happened happened one day at a time, for better or worse.

I see nothing *wrong* with what happened. But I will say that the mere fact that I can even *speculate* that 261 came east in 1995 without an explicit plan for its return says something not necessarily positive. Whether that's a fault of the 261's publicists or the actual 261 administration is something for 261's administration (and its supporters) to discuss.

> Gosh, if the East is really as steam-starved
> as everyone contends, then I would think
> that the longer the locomotive stayed, the
> happier the fans would be. It seems that it
> allowed for many people to experience a
> steam powered freight, passenger trains and
> snow plow run that might not have otherwise
> happened. And what other visiting
> locomotives made it to the Grand
> Opening....B&MR #425? Any other
> "big" locomotives make
> it...particularly from that far?

*Nope. And as one of the fare-paying passengers who enjoyed himself to frostbite during those winter charters (among the best I have ever been on, no matter what RR, locomotive, or season), I thoroughly enjoyed your presence in the East. Not a complaint there.

> I think Mr. Crosby hit the nail on the head
> concerning the benefit both parties (FO261
> and Steamtown) enjoyed by having the
> locomotive stay a little longer. The climate
> in the Midwest (other than the WC) for steam
> operations was relatively poor at the time,
> so what was the hurry to get home to the
> Midwest?

*As long as there is a guarantee in place that assures that (just to make up a preposterous example) 261 did not become the property of the NPS because it couldn't pay the storage fees that kicked in after six months, and that 261 was sure to return home one way or another, there's nothing wrong with it whatsoever. Sure, I'm HAPPY 261 got a chance to strut her stuff and that I got to enjoy her in grand style, and I hope other locomotives end up with a similar chance to be "guest loco of the year" at Steamtown.

But you only have to look at the fireworks that erupt over, for example, DL&W 952 not being in her home turf, or PRR 1361 in seemingly eternal vacation in Scranton away from her Altoona home to understand the controversy that would have erupted if 261 had somehow ended up a permanent resident of Pennsylvania.

> As for "advising" the #261 and
> crew that they shouldn't go to Baltimore
> based on a perception of incidents that
> occurred six or seven years ago, I think it
> is bad advice. No offense, just the input
> from a #261 crew member who volunteers
> volumes of time to an organization and
> operation that is way too under-rated.
> Thanks for the clarification.

*Trust me on this: My casual, off-the-cuff suggestions were a well-thought-out combination of: 1) the "lack of planning" insinuated above from the 1995-96 junket, 2) the CURRENT railroad environment (insurance, uncooperative railroads, etc.), and 3) what factors I know for certain and expect to see on THIS end of the trip.

As you can see from my comments elsewhere in this forum on other topics, I seem to make my mark on this bunch as a curmudgeonly cynic, challenging others to prove me wrong. I say a "hit squad" of restorationists will never happen; I have heard off-forum from people accepting my challenges and trying to tear down the very obstacles I cited--exactly my intended effect! Take this the same way, and you can see to it that 261 becomes the 2000's superstar excursion locomotive, just as C&O 614 and NKP 765 were in the 1980s.

And when I see you in Baltimore, I'm buying you a beer. <:-)


lner4472@bcpl.net

> As you can see from my comments elsewhere in
> this forum on other topics, I seem to make
> my mark on this bunch as a curmudgeonly
> cynic, challenging others to prove me wrong.

Find you own niche, Sandy, I have this one covered already.

> And when I see you in Baltimore, I'm buying
> you a beer. <:-)

I presume this offer applies to all readers of this list?

dave

Alexander,
I will take you up on the offer of a beer as long as the rest of the crew can buy you one. Oh, please throw in some of those delicious crabcakes too, while you are at it.

You need a chance to see what the operation that Steve Sandberg has put together can accomplish. My issue with your statements about the #261 is that they made the operation sound like a bunch of amateurs who went to Steamtown on a whim with no regard for the return of the locomotive to Minneapolis. The return plans may not have been in concrete but what I know Steve too well to know that he would never jeopardize the future of the locomotive or the operation. Negative remarks based on rumor or speculation by third parties always rankle me. Did Steve personally tell you that he had no idea if and when the engine could get home? If he did, then I apologize for my totally unwarranted post but otherwise the information you were/are working with is nothing more than "sandhouse gossip." I guess my point is that these sort of remarks plant unnecessary seeds of doubt in the minds of fans who might have otherwise assisted the cause in one way or the other. And to paraphrase your totally correct observation, "Then nothing gets done."

Do all of the big steam operators who wish to go to Baltimore need donations? Absolutely, but don't ever think that #261 will go without the means to return home.

What other group has been able to keep a locomotive in first class condition and amass a train of fourteen matching paint-schemed cars? Four more cars were recently added from the ranks of retired Amtrak cars and include two high capacity coaches, a 10-6 sleeper and a baggage dormitory car. Why? So that we can control our own destiny with a trainset which is capable of turning revenue to support the locomotive when it is not operating. And it virtually eliminates the need to trip-lease cars with all of the associated costs that come along with that particular issue/problem. Maybe I have an unfair advantage of being able to see the total picture because I work within the organization. And the people on the outside looking in base their conclusion on perception. Perception is nothing more than gathering of available information, filtering and weighing the visible data and then forming an opinion. I cannot and will not fault you for that. There were obviously things said that you picked-up on that caused you to formulate your opinion. As a group we just need to avoid circumstances that allow that to happen.

Baltimore is still the goal for FO261 this summer. If the steam gods and the CSX deem that it is right, we'll be there to lighten your wallet of a little of that beer money. And we'll give you a personal tour of the train and locomotive. We'll be the guys with the great, big smiles on our faces.

Don C.


milw261@comcast.net

Steamtown NHS could not afford to send any rolling stock to Baltimore.

Joshua

joshua@joshuakblay.com