I was looking at the web site for the Canadian Museum of Rail Travel the other day and saw the end of a steam engine. Anybody know what it is?

The museum has just moved to a larger site. Lots of photos of moving the passenger car collection.

Wonderful story of finding and moving the 1907 parlor car CUZEN which had been a Wisconsin lake side cottage since 1933.

ted_miles@nps.gov

> I was looking at the web site for the
> Canadian Museum of Rail Travel the other day
> and saw the end of a steam engine. Anybody
> know what it is?

I think it's a tender only. Here's their collections roster; the tender is item #1.

http://www.crowsnest.bc.ca/cmrt/cmrtsummary.html

CMRT roster
eledbetter@rypn.org

> I think it's a tender only. Here's their
> collections roster; the tender is item #1.

I don't understand why a coordinated effort like this hasn't been made in the states. Granted, we didn't have the luxury of only two big transcontinentals like CP and CN, but I can't believe a preserved California Zephyr/ Super Chief in the west and a 20th Century/ Broadway Limited in the east couldn't be done. I realize I am missing a whole lot of consists here, but it does raise some key issues, don't you think? Why are we preserving just single railcars when we should also be looking at entire train sets?

TJ Gaffney



Port Huron Museum
tjgaffney@phmuseum.org

Take a look at the "Reassembling the Zephyrs" editorial in our editorials section. It was along this theme. It would be great if they all could be made to run again, but even a complete trainset on display near a restored depot would be better than the motley collections of rag tag cars we have today. For this stuff to survive it has to have a reason to exist, otherwise the eclectic junkyards full of rotting corpses that we have today will probably not survive us. Our museums and sidings are presently full of passenger equipment that we'll never live long enough to restore, no matter how good our intentions.

Some short day trains, like the Twin Cities Zephyr or the Wabash Bluebird would be well suited to tourism operations, being mostly domes and a diner. The indestructible Budd consists hold up the best, but with more work and maintenance, the plain steel and aluminum cars could work also. The old NP line across Montana with a recreated North Coast Limited, for instance. The UP has done this best with their authentic-looking Streamliner. It is outfitted for modern operation, yet looks just like the trains I remember as a kid.

I think the first step at re-creating the name trains of the past is to assemble the cars at a suitable site and restore them as a static display. Once that's done, then possible operation can be explored. A train with sleeping cars might even function as a unique bed and breakfast sort of experience. It wouldn't be the Hilton, but overnight guests would help fund restoration activities. It would at least be one way of reaching the public with our activities.

> I don't understand why a coordinated effort
> like this hasn't been made in the states.
> Granted, we didn't have the luxury of only
> two big transcontinentals like CP and CN,
> but I can't believe a preserved California
> Zephyr/ Super Chief in the west and a 20th
> Century/ Broadway Limited in the east
> couldn't be done. I realize I am missing a
> whole lot of consists here, but it does
> raise some key issues, don't you think? Why
> are we preserving just single railcars when
> we should also be looking at entire train
> sets?

> TJ Gaffney


ryarger@rypn.org

> Some short day trains, like the Twin Cities
> Zephyr or the Wabash Bluebird would be well
> suited to tourism operations, being mostly
> domes and a diner.

Hmmmm. Don't the many dinner trains out there today do a fairly good job of this?

> The UP has done
> this best with their authentic-looking
> Streamliner. It is outfitted for modern
> operation, yet looks just like the trains I
> remember as a kid.

On the outside, yes. It's nothing like the old days on the inside. Nor is the AOE. I question whether ther would be any market for such things as uppers and lowers, roomettes and slumbercoaches. IMHO, People have come to expect more from their travel experience than what the railroads offered 50 years ago.

> I think the first step at re-creating the
> name trains of the past is to assemble the
> cars at a suitable site and restore them as
> a static display. Once that's done, then
> possible operation can be explored. A train
> with sleeping cars might even function as a
> unique bed and breakfast sort of experience.
> It wouldn't be the Hilton, but overnight
> guests would help fund restoration
> activities. It would at least be one way of
> reaching the public with our activities.

That might work, but there have been at least two big-city hotel efforts built around restored railroad cars, and both flopped financially.

Today's travelers and public, conditioned as they are to cruise ship accomodations and entertainment and spacious motel rooms, might spend a night in a roomette once (with bath down the hall and no shower) but will probably come away feeling as if they know for certain why jets and autos replaced trains.

> Hmmmm. Don't the many dinner trains out
> there today do a fairly good job of this?

> On the outside, yes. It's nothing like the
> old days on the inside. Nor is the AOE. I
> question whether ther would be any market
> for such things as uppers and lowers,
> roomettes and slumbercoaches. IMHO, People
> have come to expect more from their travel
> experience than what the railroads offered
> 50 years ago.

I think I'm going to have to respectfully disagree. While some things during that era would be unacceptable to today's traveler, there are many things that gone to hell since that time. One thing that immediately comes to mind is food. How about customer service in general? How can a modern Greyhound and cramped airliner compare to a modern consist that existed 50 years ago? Furthermore, the grand stations operated by the likes of Greyhound (I'm just using them as an example) and our airports in general just rival such stuffy old terminals like Penn Station and Grand Central Terminal (I hope you sense my sarcasm).

God Bless,
Gerald W. Kopiasz

> That might work, but there have been at
> least two big-city hotel efforts built
> around restored railroad cars, and both
> flopped financially.

> Today's travelers and public, conditioned as
> they are to cruise ship accomodations and
> entertainment and spacious motel rooms,
> might spend a night in a roomette once (with
> bath down the hall and no shower) but will
> probably come away feeling as if they know
> for certain why jets and autos replaced
> trains.


hrrhs@aol.com

Our organization is attempting to recreate the Erie Lackawanna's "Lake Cities" of the early 1960's. Our focal point is the diner, but we also are in the process of getting a baggage car. One of our members has purchased a 6-6-4 "American" series sleeper and he is looking for a coach. All of this will be painted and lettered for the Erie Lackawanna. We have a home on the Delaware-Lackawanna shortline railroad so we can run these cars on part of their original route.

We have stayed away from motive power. Of course it would be nice to have a set of E-8's to pull this train, but our goal is to recreate the experience of riding a long distance passenger train. If it feels like 1961 inside the diner, does it matter what pulls you?

Erie Lackawanna Dining Car Preservation Society
tstuy@eldcps.org

> Our organization is attempting to recreate
> the Erie Lackawanna's "Lake
> Cities" of the early 1960's. Our focal
> point is the diner, but we also are in the
> process of getting a baggage car. One of our
> members has purchased a 6-6-4
> "American" series sleeper and he
> is looking for a coach. All of this will be
> painted and lettered for the Erie
> Lackawanna. We have a home on the
> Delaware-Lackawanna shortline railroad so we
> can run these cars on part of their original
> route.

> We have stayed away from motive power. Of
> course it would be nice to have a set of
> E-8's to pull this train, but our goal is to
> recreate the experience of riding a long
> distance passenger train. If it feels like
> 1961 inside the diner, does it matter what
> pulls you?

Why not "trip-lease" the Lackawanna (painted)E-8s from CNY-NRHS in Syracuse. They have been to Scranton on two occasions I can recall. Assuming a reasonable cost from NYS&W/CP to ferry them to Scranton,that could be a win-win for both organizations.
As far as other EL passenger equipment, I recall speaking with a gentleman who owns EL cars that ran on the Cotton Belt 813 trips from Pine Bluff, AR some years ago. Also, I thought Strate Bros Circus Train had one or two. (Not sure any are available, but it pays to keep track with the current cost difficulties of running excursions.)
Best of luck with your "Lake Cities" recreation. I rode it in the late 60's and listened to many stories of the "glory days" of DL&W/Erie passenger trains. JB

jjburke0918@aol.com

Hear! Hear! I think it would be wonderful to put a
CZ back together! I have only ridden it in the Amtrak era, but what a train ride it is!

Locomotives are wonderful; but so are classic wooden passenger cars such as they have and are restoring at the Canadian Museum of Rail Travel.

ted_miles@nps.gov

If you read my editorial, I only proposed the "bed and breakfast" sort of idea as a way to save endangered equipment. There was no mention of it being a profit-making enterprise. I'm quite aware of the failure of previous "train motels", much like the common failure of hokey restaurants that use old train cars or depots.

Staying overnight on a static train would not compete with the Radisson nor even Motel 6. It would just be something different that a family might try once. Die-hard heritage tourists might do it twice. I see it only as a non-profit venture, probably run by volunteers, to help restore and maintain the display train.

None of the dinner trains I've seen replicate the past, though some are said to serve good food. They all have their own paint schemes and are a mish-mash of equipment, much like the typical model railroad. Maybe the public doesn't know or care, but I think a re-created Zephyr, Super Chief, Rocket, Mainstreeter or Empire Builder would have more credibility than a motley collection of converted coaches with a purple and chartreuse F unit on each end.

> Hmmmm. Don't the many dinner trains out
> there today do a fairly good job of this?

> On the outside, yes. It's nothing like the
> old days on the inside. Nor is the AOE. I
> question whether ther would be any market
> for such things as uppers and lowers,
> roomettes and slumbercoaches. IMHO, People
> have come to expect more from their travel
> experience than what the railroads offered
> 50 years ago.

> That might work, but there have been at
> least two big-city hotel efforts built
> around restored railroad cars, and both
> flopped financially.

> Today's travelers and public, conditioned as
> they are to cruise ship accomodations and
> entertainment and spacious motel rooms,
> might spend a night in a roomette once (with
> bath down the hall and no shower) but will
> probably come away feeling as if they know
> for certain why jets and autos replaced
> trains.


ryarger@rypn.org

While these "wouldn't it be great if..." and "why doesn't somebody..." posts are a common thread on this board and others, the stark reality is that the cost of such ventures, even as static displays, can be enormous. Especially given the market price of certain car types, such as vista domes. It's expensive and difficult enough to preserve one car, let alone a whole train. While I'm all for these ideas in principle, few, if any people who suggest such projects are there with the cash in hand to make them possible. Anyone who thinks such a project is a great idea is welcome to step up to the plate and underwrite it with their own dollars.

Another common misconception with many enthusiasts is the sad, unfortunate reality that many of these trains are simply not possible to re-create accurately anymore. The passage of time has taken a real toll on many of these cars that we have such affection for. There is a perception among some that most of these cars are still out there, just waiting to be rescued, when in fact far more cars have been scrapped or highly modified than many of us realize. For example, there is only one known fairly original ex-CZ 1948 built 10-6 sleeper left on the planet, the Silver Rapids. The 4 other CZ 1948 10-6's left from that order are highly modified from their original configuration. Same situation for the Wabash Blue Bird on the thread above. Only 6 cars comprised the Budd version of that train, but the diner is MIA, and the combine is not available and has been gutted anyway. So, such re-creations would be a lot more difficult to pull off than people realize, even if the funds for such a project were available from a generous benefactor/enthusiast

> If you read my editorial, I only proposed
> the "bed and breakfast" sort of
> idea as a way to save endangered equipment.
> There was no mention of it being a
> profit-making enterprise. I'm quite aware of
> the failure of previous "train
> motels", much like the common failure
> of hokey restaurants that use old train cars
> or depots.

> Staying overnight on a static train would
> not compete with the Radisson nor even Motel
> 6. It would just be something different that
> a family might try once. Die-hard heritage
> tourists might do it twice. I see it only as
> a non-profit venture, probably run by
> volunteers, to help restore and maintain the
> display train.

OK, Bob, but you have to opposite points here. If it's non-profit, and it won't make any money, then where does the cash come from to get the cars, set them up, refurbish them, make them meet local codes (they will especially have ot if they are going to be occupied), and then to operate them as a stationary hotel? There will be costs for linens and consumables, for water and sewer and power and electricity and replacement of worn/damaged/stolen items. Where does the money for that come from if, up front, the project is expected to lose money? Where does the money come from to pay the hired help, assuming it's not all volunteer?

You make a very valid point abou the number of cars istting aorund crumbling already. IMO, That is an indication that there isn't enough money to even stabilize a lot of this stuff, much less fix it up and operate it as even a stationary hotel.

Not to harp on it, but that is a big problem with this industry now: Too many things that are seemingly "nice" to do end up sucking up all the available resources

> None of the dinner trains I've seen
> replicate the past, though some are said to
> serve good food. They all have their own
> paint schemes and are a mish-mash of
> equipment, much like the typical model
> railroad. Maybe the public doesn't know or
> care, but I think a re-created Zephyr, Super
> Chief, Rocket, Mainstreeter or Empire
> Builder would have more credibility than a
> motley collection of converted coaches with
> a purple and chartreuse F unit on each end.

Possibly, but if it's stationary, what difference does it make? People seldom chose a train for it's color scheme...they chose a train for fares and if it was going and coming from the places they wanted to go and come from at the right times.

Other points for discussion: If it's stationary all the time (either a diner or sleeper), where's the rest of the "the experience?" The sounds, movements, odors, slack action, etc? Granted, some of it can be replicated.

About the food: going back to the old dining car menus as they were written will get the food police on you, and will turn off a lot of your audience. All that lard, salt and other stuff they used prolifically in those days is a big no--no today.

I hate these extended threads, so will make this my last comment. I don't have all the answers, but I do know there is a lot of excess passenger equipment rotting away, both on obscure sidings and at museums. Sooner or later, some of the folks that own it are going to realize they will really never get around to restoring and using it. Donation to a worthy project where it could be displayed in a proper historic context is preferable to scrapping. Such a display train could be a worthy attraction to a restored depot. It could just be a walk through display, but being able to dine and sleep on it could be a plus.

Depot projects have been funded by the likes of ISTEA and TEA-21, the train restoration would be a natural extension of the project. The train addition must be sold as a historical and cultural attraction that benefits the community, not just another "playing with trains" project by hobbyists, which is what so many of our projects amount to. Many fail because they were bad, unhistoric or impractical ideas to start with. There's a difference between recreating history and building a big train set. So far, we've been building big model railroads, mostly. If someone has a better idea of how all this passenger equipment might be saved, I'd like to hear it. Personally, I don't accept such dismal doubting without trying to at least raise interest in such projects.

> OK, Bob, but you have to opposite points
> here. If it's non-profit, and it won't make
> any money, then where does the cash come
> from to get the cars, set them up, refurbish
> them, make them meet local codes (they will
> especially have ot if they are going to be
> occupied), and then to operate them as a
> stationary hotel? There will be costs for
> linens and consumables, for water and sewer
> and power and electricity and replacement of
> worn/damaged/stolen items. Where does the
> money for that come from if, up front, the
> project is expected to lose money? Where
> does the money come from to pay the hired
> help, assuming it's not all volunteer?

> You make a very valid point abou the number
> of cars istting aorund crumbling already.
> IMO, That is an indication that there isn't
> enough money to even stabilize a lot of this
> stuff, much less fix it up and operate it as
> even a stationary hotel.

> Not to harp on it, but that is a big problem
> with this industry now: Too many things that
> are seemingly "nice" to do end up
> sucking up all the available resources

> Possibly, but if it's stationary, what
> difference does it make? People seldom chose
> a train for it's color scheme...they chose a
> train for fares and if it was going and
> coming from the places they wanted to go and
> come from at the right times.

> Other points for discussion: If it's
> stationary all the time (either a diner or
> sleeper), where's the rest of the "the
> experience?" The sounds, movements,
> odors, slack action, etc? Granted, some of
> it can be replicated.

> About the food: going back to the old dining
> car menus as they were written will get the
> food police on you, and will turn off a lot
> of your audience. All that lard, salt and
> other stuff they used prolifically in those
> days is a big no--no today.


ryarger@rypn.org

> Where does the
> money for that come from if, up front, the
> project is expected to lose money? Where
> does the money come from to pay the hired
> help, assuming it's not all volunteer?

Heck, that would be big part of the authenticity;
a replication of passenger so accurate that it goes broke and drags the museum into bankruptcy!!

> Other points for discussion: If it's
> stationary all the time (either a diner or
> sleeper), where's the rest of the "the
> experience?" The sounds, movements,
> odors, slack action, etc? Granted, some of
> it can be replicated.

You left a lot out. Most travel was by coach; only the well-off and business people on expense accounts could afford to travel on the all-Pullman limiteds. The rest of us rode coach. So, you'd have to have coaches, where you could sleep with 40 or 50 of your closest friends, rent a pillow for 25 cents a night, get to listen to wailing babies and have the kid in the seat behind you whack you over the head with his toy. You could have the conductor turn all the lights on at 3 AM to check tickets, and have a post-midnight meal stop at some dumpy depot, since many coach trains had no diners.

Throw in some noctural switching, with much slamming and banging as the crew makes joints. Then have the car run out of water and/or be too hot or too cold, and have at least one flat wheel.
Throw in the noise of freights roaring past in the opposite direction, whistles wailing.

You could replicate wartime travel, with 75 people, sitting on their luggage in the aisles, crammed into a 60-seat coach that has been in storage all through the depression and comes complete with fleas and vermin. Every so often on a hot summer night, have someone throw a scoopful of cinders in the open windows to replicate non-air conditioned cars in the steam era.

> About the food: going back to the old dining
> car menus as they were written will get the
> food police on you, and will turn off a lot
> of your audience. All that lard, salt and
> other stuff they used prolifically in those
> days is a big no--no today.

Heck, get rid of the diner and put in an automat car, like SP did. Make sure it runs out of everything halfway through the "trip," assuming none of the machines jam up and you don't run out of change.

Ahhhhh....the good old days of rail travel.

Why don't we just cut all this up so we don't have to worry about taking up valuable track space? Furthermore, that would take care of the problem of trying to come up with innovative uses. We could then take all of artifacts from these cars that have just been scrapped that formers are interested in and put them on Ebay. This stuff would keep the foamers busy for a while and then we wouldn't have to worry about them stealing stuff off our existing equipment.

Gerald W. Kopiasz

> Heck, that would be big part of the
> authenticity;
> a replication of passenger so accurate that
> it goes broke and drags the museum into
> bankruptcy!!

> You left a lot out. Most travel was by
> coach; only the well-off and business people
> on expense accounts could afford to travel
> on the all-Pullman limiteds. The rest of us
> rode coach. So, you'd have to have coaches,
> where you could sleep with 40 or 50 of your
> closest friends, rent a pillow for 25 cents
> a night, get to listen to wailing babies and
> have the kid in the seat behind you whack
> you over the head with his toy. You could
> have the conductor turn all the lights on at
> 3 AM to check tickets, and have a
> post-midnight meal stop at some dumpy depot,
> since many coach trains had no diners.

> Throw in some noctural switching, with much
> slamming and banging as the crew makes
> joints. Then have the car run out of water
> and/or be too hot or too cold, and have at
> least one flat wheel.
> Throw in the noise of freights roaring past
> in the opposite direction, whistles wailing.

> You could replicate wartime travel, with 75
> people, sitting on their luggage in the
> aisles, crammed into a 60-seat coach that
> has been in storage all through the
> depression and comes complete with fleas and
> vermin. Every so often on a hot summer
> night, have someone throw a scoopful of
> cinders in the open windows to replicate
> non-air conditioned cars in the steam era.

> Heck, get rid of the diner and put in an
> automat car, like SP did. Make sure it runs
> out of everything halfway through the
> "trip," assuming none of the
> machines jam up and you don't run out of
> change.

> Ahhhhh....the good old days of rail travel.


hrrhs@aol.com