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| Question regarding Santa Fe PA retirements https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5505 |
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| Author: | Richard [ Sat Mar 29, 2003 12:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Question regarding Santa Fe PA retirements |
I remember when the Santa Fe retired the PA fleet, back in the 60's and was delighted that D&H had the vision to note the exceptionality of the design. It seems odd to me, in retrospect, that only those four were saved, and those only by fate intervening. Since the design was widely regarded as the most beautiful Diesel locomotive ever constructed and the "warbonnet" scheme being possibly the most popular locomotive colors ever devised. Did any museum ever request a PA at that time? Did Santa Fe see them only as so much tradein value? Was an attempt ever made to go beyond those four that were saved and (now) salvaged? I know that Pielet Bros. had a contract to cut up everything that rolled into the yard, without regard to historical rariety. Does anyone have further insight? glueck@maine.edu |
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| Author: | davew833 [ Mon Mar 31, 2003 12:56 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Question regarding Santa Fe PA retirements |
Only 297 Alco PA's (250 cab units) were built vs. about 1300 EMD E-units. The PA had some technical problems in the beginning and tended to be more maintenance-intensive and thus had a shorter lifespan than comparable E units. Fewer numbers built and shorter lifespan= fewer units around to preserve by the time anyone thought about it. Railroads cared more about reliability, ease of maintenance, etc., and so the PA's were retired early despite their stylish good looks. Many Santa Fe PA's were traded in to EMD, who didn't want to take any chance that trade-ins would end up back in service to dilute possible sales of new EMD products. Even historic EMD units met the torch, and some, like the sole remaining CB&Q E5 #9911A, escaped the scrapyard only with great difficulty. The four PA's D&H bought were purchased straight from AT&SF and were some of the last remaining on the property. D&H was also able to acquire a fifth PA, which had been traded in to GE by New Haven, for parts. (I guess GE's sales policy was a little more liberal.) Attitudes toward historic preservation were much different in the '60s than now, especially toward diesels, which were relatively new and not seen as worthy of preservation as steam locomotives. What I would really like to know is how the four D&H PA's managed to sneak across the border to Mexico in 1978 or '79 with little or no protest by the preservation community. Surely their value and uniqueness would have been recognized by then. Perhaps D&H's asking price for them was just too high. > I remember when the Santa Fe retired the PA > fleet, back in the 60's and was delighted > that D&H had the vision to note the > exceptionality of the design. It seems odd > to me, in retrospect, that only those four > were saved, and those only by fate > intervening. Since the design was widely > regarded as the most beautiful Diesel > locomotive ever constructed and the > "warbonnet" scheme being possibly > the most popular locomotive colors ever > devised. Did any museum ever request a PA at > that time? Did Santa Fe see them only as so > much tradein value? Was an attempt ever made > to go beyond those four that were saved and > (now) salvaged? I know that Pielet Bros. had > a contract to cut up everything that rolled > into the yard, without regard to historical > rariety. > Does anyone have further insight? davew833@yahoo.com |
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| Author: | Howard P. [ Mon Mar 31, 2003 8:24 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Question regarding Santa Fe PA retirements |
> What I would really like to know is how the > four D&H PA's managed to sneak across > the border to Mexico in 1978 or '79 with > little or no protest by the preservation > community. Surely their value and uniqueness > would have been recognized by then. Perhaps > D&H's asking price for them was just too > high. This is one of those stories that may never be completely told..... The D&H was in tough financial shape by 1978, and a number of units (the PAs, C-628s, etc.) were leased, very quickly and very quietly, to an equipment broker for use in Mexico. The locomotives were over the border almost before anyone knew what was going on. It's my understanding that there was a significant investment of New York State transportation bond funds in the PAs (as well as in the Adirondack passenger cars), and it was questionable whether they should have been allowed to be leased in such a situation. Even in 1978 it was fairly well known that a trip to Mexico was a one-way journey for railroad equipment. A number of people inquired of the NY State Transportation Dept. about this transaction, and the replies were less than forthcoming. It certainly seemed "fishy". The Adirondack passenger cars that were not leased were quickly grabbed by NY DOT and put into service on the Conrail commuter lines out of Grand Central Terminal (the old NYC lines) to supplement the rather ratty old NYC cars. The D&H cars were quite nice and well liked by the commuters. hpincus@mindspring.com |
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| Author: | Jim [ Mon Mar 31, 2003 12:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Question regarding Santa Fe PA retirements |
>According to a Santa Fe mechanhical department employee, Pielet Brothers was also totally alienated after repeated thefts of builders plates, etc and finally decided not to deal with any preservation groups in retaliation. jimhollis@ev1.net |
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| Author: | LocoBuilder [ Sat Apr 05, 2003 1:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Question regarding Santa Fe PA retirements |
The "boilerplate" in most locomotive sales contracts that I have ever seen specified that finanical responsibiity for shipment of both new and trade-in locomotives belonged to the purchaser. There was an interesting article pertaining to Pielet Brothers on a website pertaining to locomotive resellers and scrap dealers. A family member recounted the fact that Pielet had an ironclad contract to scrap everything sent to them by EMD. I cannot speak directly as to what transpired on the Santa Fe. However, it is easy to speculate that trade-in locomotives destined for Pielet Bros were shipped as company material to Chicago. However, for other railroads (and builders), the policy was different. One example was the New Haven Railroad. We took a number of locomotives from them in trade on two orders of 2500 hp freight units. Instead of shipping entire locos back to Erie, they arranged with a local scrap dealer to render the units for salvage. We supplied a detailed specification as to what to salvage, construction of shipping containers and so on. This was conveyed to the scrap dealer. We may have had a person on-site for a while, but I don't remember. I seem to recall that the material was shipped in gondola cars back to Erie. I also recall that the PRR would do the same thing at their own Altoona Reclamation Plant. Seem to remember that fifteen Alco 2000 hp passenger units were salvaged there and came back as Alco freight units. Finally, there were two of the ex-ATSF Alco passenger units painted in D&H colors that sat at Erie for some time. They may have been trade-in's, but I don't recall if we had any orders with D&H at the time. However, I do recall that a VERY senior manager gave orders that they not be scrapped. I was told this by the fellow who ran the reclamation building-where trade-in units were processed for salvage. locobuilder@hotmail.com |
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