We had a membership meeting at SCRM this weekend. In my report on the museum exhibits, I mentioned that I planned to steam the small stationary boiler and sawmill we had donated to us recently. My lord, you'd have thought I'd told them I was bringing a hand grenade with the pin pulled into the Museum!

I knew we have a number of paranoid Prophets of Doom in the organization. I did not realize how badly the anti-steam disease had infected the membership, however. I have no intention of either giving up or compromising -- my goal is to use this diminutive, relatively low-temperature pot boiler to prove that firing up a steam boiler does not necessarily mean you're going to kill, scald, and maim thousands.

I need two things from you experienced steam people. First, ideas on how to convince these paranoid Prophets of Doom that I'm not going to blow the entire Rockton Yard sky-high with a little 18" long pot boiler. And second, what precautions are reasonable so that I don't do something that's far more likely, namely burn or scald myself or, God forbid, a visitor.

The South Carolina Railroad Museum
mconrad@compuzone.net

More questions than answers. At what pressure are you going to run this thing? Is this display home built? Does it have any type of certification? You should be planning a hydrostatic test of 1-1/2 times the operating pressure.

I would also consider operation on low pressure compressed air. Air can also be dangerous but is a lot less dangerous than live steam. Also you could place the boiler in a remote location away from the public.

Tom Gears

Tom has some great points and to add to those, Is the boiler currently licensed by the appropriate state authority. Has it gone through the required tests or survey as outlined by the State or insurance carrier. When was the last time the boiler was steamed. How was it layed up, stored. What is the internal and external condition. If you don't know the answers to these questions then steaming the boiler is out of the question.

Just because someone has labled it a teapot it is still capable of blowing up and killing a lot of people.

Here at the Maritime Park we have been running a Donkey engine at 15 pounds for years. It burns scrap wood for fuel, it whistles and moves and
the public loves it.

Low pressure may be the way to go. Always keep an eye on the water glass and the safety valves.There should be two of them.

Make steam happen!

Ted Miles

ted_miles@nps.gov

> We had a membership meeting at SCRM this
> weekend. In my report on the museum
> exhibits, I mentioned that I planned to
> steam the small stationary boiler and
> sawmill we had donated to us recently. My
> lord, you'd have thought I'd told them I was
> bringing a hand grenade with the pin pulled
> into the Museum!

> I knew we have a number of paranoid Prophets
> of Doom in the organization. I did not
> realize how badly the anti-steam disease had
> infected the membership, however. I have no
> intention of either giving up or
> compromising -- my goal is to use this
> diminutive, relatively low-temperature pot
> boiler to prove that firing up a steam
> boiler does not necessarily mean you're
> going to kill, scald, and maim thousands.

> I need two things from you experienced steam
> people. First, ideas on how to convince
> these paranoid Prophets of Doom that I'm not
> going to blow the entire Rockton Yard
> sky-high with a little 18" long pot
> boiler. And second, what precautions are
> reasonable so that I don't do something
> that's far more likely, namely burn or scald
> myself or, God forbid, a visitor.

Please do not get upset by what the others said. They were really quite reasonable. Look at it this way. You would NOT expect the "Paranoid Prophets of Doom" to allow you to do electrical wiring on the place, and then turn it on unless you have an electricians license, and have the job inspected by the local elecrical code inspector. Likewise there are codes for boilers! If you do not know what these are, then find someone who does, and have the boiler and other equipment installed to state or local codes by someone who holds the appropriate license. Then have the installation inspected by the state or local boiler inspector. Then call your liability insurance company and get their input on safe operation and how to control the public access to hot and/or steamy places. Also find out if state or local rules require the operator to be licensed to operate a boiler. How do you intend to "qualify" whomsoever is in charge of the boiler?
The fact that you have to ask this board for advice means that you are NOT qualified to do the installation or operate the system without the advice of at least the above mentioned persons. Please do all the experienced "steam freaks" a favor by installing and operating with qualified help. We do not want YOU to make mistakes which could impact our operations!
Do these things and then the PPOD's will come around to your point of view and even congratulate you for providing a safe, well engineered and installed attraction.


clica@xieee.org

AMEN! and AMEN!!

K4s1361@hotmail.com

As I believe I recommended to you before I think you should contact the people running the steam show at Denton, NC. I remember they run a steam school program that could help you and satisfy some of the doom and gloom crowd. The operation is call the Denton Farm Park and their big show is during the fourth of July week.

jhbohon@yahoo.com

> As I believe I recommended to you before I
> think you should contact the people running
> the steam show at Denton, NC. I remember
> they run a steam school program that could
> help you and satisfy some of the doom and
> gloom crowd. The operation is call the
> Denton Farm Park and their big show is
> during the fourth of July week.

Do you have any contact information for them? I've been to Denton during their July 4 week festival, and while I thought the admission and parking was a tad high, I thoroughly enjoyed my visit.

To answer a few points raised by others...

The boiler is a pot boiler. It appears to have been made from something like a gas cylinder because one end is rounded. The other end has a steel plate welded around the perimiter. Judging from the bead, the welder knew what he was doing. We have drawings of the boiler which spec 6" schedule 40 pipe. There is one safety on the boiler, set for 80 psi. I plan to add a second safety set at 75 psi. I don't want to go much lower than about 40 psi because the engines need that much pressure to operate reliably. I'd have to measure it or look at the drawings to give you the exact length, but I'd guess it's about 18" long.

There is one "water glass" on the boiler. The thing is so small that I don't think two will fit. I was told that the last time the boiler was fired, it reached 20 psi and the rubber tubing that was used as the water glass blew out. Not surprising, IMHO. I plan to redesign and refit the water glass with a REAL glass, also adding shutoffs. I've had the boiler up to operating pressure on air and this piss-poor glass held, but it made me nervous.

The burner, located in a well-made firebox that also supports the boiler, burns propane. It appears to be an ordinary gas grill burner. If there's a weak link in the firebox it's the stack, which just sits on a pair of tabs turned up.

I'm pretty sure the boiler is only a few years old. The whole model was made by an engineering class at the University of SC. While the coating of dust on the model and the condition of the engine tells me it's been stored for a while (at least several months), I don't think the last firing was much more than a year or so ago.

As far as a hydro test... I know the theory of how to do this but have never done it. Can it be done "on the cheap," i.e. without a real test unit? In other words, could I mount a pressure gauge on a water hose and pump it up, assuming the hose provides enough pressure?

The South Carolina Railroad Museum
mconrad@compuzone.net

> Do you have any contact information for them?

The show is called the Southeast Old Threshers Reunion. Contact phone # 336-859-2755, Contact email Manager@Threshers.com

More and more hobbiests are switching to running on air when exhibiting in public venues. It just much safer and easier to deal with when visitors are around. Using air to power your sawmill display is something to consider.

As for using that boiler, I'd definitely suggest having a local "steam qualified" person check it out and make recomendations before firing it, especially where visitors are present. While I recall hearing about (I think in LIVE STEAM MAGAZINE) someone using some kind of tubing for a water sight glass--IIRC it was was being used with a MUCH lower working pressure (I think something like 10-15 psi)--it would be definitely a bad idea at 80 psi! As you plan, that should be the #1 fix before even thinking about firing the boiler. Also a boiler of this size (6" dia X 18" long) should really have at least one method of adding feedwater while under steam (ie: a hand pump) (if not already so fitted). Be carefull of the safety valve--make sure it is rated for steam and isn't just a compressed air rated relief valve stuck in place (I know of this happening and that "rubber tubing sight glass" makes me wonder). A good pressure gauge (properly installed) is, of course, another must. If the boiler has a hand pump, it usually can be used to perform a hydro-test.

Firing a "homemade" boiler (even one that was a product of an engineering class) in your back yard is one thing, but taking it out into the public is another issue altogether. It's most likely a safe boiler (with a proper water glass and other appurtenances), but "most likely" doesn't cut it when the public is concerned. So definitely hook up with a friendly steam person (hopefully someone at the threshers group can help you out) and verify you have a safe-to-use boiler.

In the meantime, again consider running the display on air to start with. Yeah, I know... "Running an engine on air vs. steam is like the differance between kissing your sister and your girlfriend", but better safe than sorry.

Good luck with your project and keep the updates coming!

Regards,
Jim Robinson

> As far as a hydro test... I know the theory
> of how to do this but have never done it.
> Can it be done "on the cheap,"
> i.e. without a real test unit? In other
> words, could I mount a pressure gauge on a
> water hose and pump it up, assuming the hose
> provides enough pressure?

Matt,

Sunbelt Rentals (among others) rents hydrostatic testers. Cost you a little but worth tons of peace of mind for any pressure vessel.
Careful on the "cheapo" approach- make sure cutting cost isnt cutting corners. I would be less concerned about the other folks who might be "skeered" and focus on assuring yourself you are "practicing safe technology". Coralling someone who knows this stuff to help out is a smart move.

Bill

staybolt@bellsouth.net

Just back on the computer, having been out of town surveying a much larger boiler.

If you want to bring the steam stuff you have found down to Savannah some mutually convenient time, we can run some tests and make some repairs.

Dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

> Just back on the computer, having been out
> of town surveying a much larger boiler.

> If you want to bring the steam stuff you
> have found down to Savannah some mutually
> convenient time, we can run some tests and
> make some repairs.

Dave, since I know you and haven't met anyone at Denton, I think I'll take you up on that. Will email off-list later to figure out when.

As for running on air... as far as I'm concerned, that's not an option except for test running. There are a couple reasons for this.

A large part of why I want to steam this thing is to prove to the Doubting Thomases that boiling water isn't necessarily going to cause death and destruction for miles in all directions. Steam paranoia is rampant, to the point where we have people saying that we'll never have a running steam loco. To hell with that... I'll see steam on the Rockton & Rion again if it kills me (no comments, please).

Another reason I'm not crazy about running on air is that I've been doing so since the sawmill arrived. None of the portable compressors we've got have enough CFMs to adequately run even one engine, let alone two. The best the portable compressor will hold is about 15 psi -- with the engine stalled because it needs at least 20 to move at all and 35-40 to run reliably at a reasonable speed. Then there's the noise factor to consider.

I will offer one final note. Some of the PPODs at the Museum had the idea that I was planning to fire the boiler then leave it unattended all day. I was actually insulted by this idea -- I'll admit to being a little nuts, but I'm not stupid. My plan is to have scheduled steam-ups, and stay with the mill the entire time as a combination operator/docent. The mill isn't designed for automatic operation anyway. As long as there's pressure in the boiler, it WILL be attended.

The South Carolina Railroad Museum
mconrad@compuzone.net

Matt,

First you need to determine what pressure this system will operate. If it is something like 15 PSI then you can do a hydro with nothing more than a hose and pressure gauge. Install the gauge and connect the hose. Bleed all air out of the system at the highest point. Next use the hose to pressure the boiler to 1-1/2 times the operating pressure. Most local water systems operate at pressures of 30PSI or higher. If your boiler operates at 15 PSI you can easily pressure test it to 30PSI with a local water pressure.

Tom Gears

tom@forgottendelaware.com

> To hell with that... I'll see steam on the
> Rockton & Rion again if it kills me (no
> comments, please).

Matt, I would encourage you to talk with the steam engine guys at New Hope Valley RR at Bonsal, NC, and see if a visit can't be arranged for their 0-4-0T. Might make a nice event at Rockton quarry.

Dave

irondave@bellsouth.net