We are getting ready to paint a boxcar and some buildings at the NN Ry. And I have questions about red paint. I've been doing some research and what I'm hearing is that the new synthetic pigments turn pink after about 4 yours. That the old red lead pigment has been banned. The ideas now being kicked around are use a red oxide primer and then cover that with a clear satin covering. Using a red paint and then covering it with UV coating. Or repainting every 4 years. Any ideas out there?

Nevada Northern Railway Museum
nnry1@mwpower.net

50000 bottles of Floquil?

Seriously Mark, all paints fade but a good quality industrial / automotive enamel should last a decent while before turning bubble gum on you. A clear coat won't eliminate fade, but it will forestall any chalking effect if you use chalking paints.

PPG came out with an environmentally innocuous water based industrial enamel I have applied with brush / roller where spray would have contaminated nearby things causing lawsuits and other nasty reactions. It has held up well for a few years now in service. Might see what your local coatings dealers think would work best in your climate - not much like Georgia.

Dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

> Any ideas out there?

Paint is one area where it pays to spend the extra dollar or two per gallon. Get the top-of-the-line stuff, it lasts much longer. And since so much of the "cost" of painting is time and effort in prep work, you're saving even more by not having to do that again.

Life's to short to use cheap paint.

Friends don't let friends use cheap paint.

More cliches to come.

JAC

Red oxide doesn't need to include lead, it was based (historically) on iron oxides. If it included lead, it was a small amount. Today everyone seems to use synthetic pigments. We have had good luck with them, if the mix is based on the traditional formulasÂ… i.e. red oxide, yellow oxide and lamp black pigmentsÂ… Many modern mixes use purples to get to mineral red, and those will fade wrong.

Chalking isnÂ’t necessarily a bad thing. This is how historic paints failed. Modern paints donÂ’t chalk much. We used a white lead paint to letter one of our flats, and with age we are getting the streaks as the paint chalks and washes down the side sill.

One additional thought. Tradition linseed oil paints were by nature glossy. To make them flat you had to add large amounts of solventÂ… So Semi gloss paint is probably the way to go.

Randy Hees


http://spcrr.org
hees@ix.netcom.com

Red Lead (Oxide of Lead) is made made from metallic lead, by a burning process. Lead melts easily at 620 degrees F, but in this burning process the temperature is boosted to 900 degrees to 1200 degrees F at which oxygen is included into the lead producing an oxidizing effect and the resultant compound is the bright reddish powder that we know of as red lead.

Besides worrying about paint fading, be concerned about proper surface preparation. It will not do you any good if the color stays but the paint flakes off of the surface.

Use a good primer. Use a primer that is appropriate for the surface being covered and for the brand of paint being used.

I have seen:
1) Paint flaking on a nicely historically painted box car, except for the one location a primer test was applied before the the car became a restoration candidate. The person doing the complete paint job did not believe in primer!

2) A primer for weathered wood applied to new, tight-grained roofboards. The paint and the primer togeather peeled off the roof board. [But I've seen this same primer work well on weathered wood.]

Pick the right primer.

Brian Norden

> Paint is one area where it pays to spend the
> extra dollar or two per gallon. Get the
> top-of-the-line stuff, it lasts much longer.
> And since so much of the "cost" of
> painting is time and effort in prep work,
> you're saving even more by not having to do
> that again.

> Life's to short to use cheap paint.

> Friends don't let friends use cheap paint.

> More cliches to come.

> JAC


bnorden49@earthlink.net

> We are getting ready to paint a boxcar and
> some buildings at the NN Ry. And I have
> questions about red paint. I've been doing
> some research and what I'm hearing is that
> the new synthetic pigments turn pink after
> about 4 yours. That the old red lead pigment
> has been banned. The ideas now being kicked
> around are use a red oxide primer and then
> cover that with a clear satin covering.
> Using a red paint and then covering it with
> UV coating. Or repainting every 4 years. Any
> ideas out there?

You said you will be painting buildings and a box car. You may want to check out Bear finishing products. for the buildings We have used their solid stains and they hold up for 8 to 10 years.
[Box car red] However if you do as we did, and paint a wood car with oil base P.E.RED It will turn Pink in about two years and now needs to be redone.

davewolven@msn.com

Good old fashioned oil based paint consists of pigment, vehicle and thinner as distinguished from enamel(which adds varnish to the mix). Dry pigments are difficult to wet so they are "ground" in a "vehicle" such as japan or linseed oil. Natural pigments (iron oxide in all its different colors etc) do not fade as much as synthetic pigments and are the way to go if you can match your color. An internet search will reveal sources of natural pigments.
Different Phases of "OF" Paint:
1. If you mix a small amount of pigment with a small amount of boiled linseed oil and a large amount of thinner you get a transparent stain. Vary the amount of pigment for the effect you want.
2. If you increase the amount of pigment you get a opaque stain ... this is what wooden car builders used under the varnish.
3. With a opaque pigment level adding more linseed oil gives you a good semi-gloss finish which will go to flat in a few years while the natural pigments will not fade from UV.
4. To produce a gloss finish, either go over the #3 color coat with a good varnish or add varnish to the mix. For a finish you can "look in to" the cover coat of varnish is the way to go.

If you use BOILED Linseed Oil (BLO) as a primer on new wood (or even better on old wood) you will find that it soaks in to the soft spots forming an even base for the new paint that will not flake off. So-called wood primer contains pigments that sit on the surface and very limited ingredients that will soak in and seal the surface. BLO for some reason is a neglected item and everyone is ready to sell you super deluxe expensive primers for wood that don't do half as good a job. You can use BLO straight from the can or thin it for a faster set and use several coats. All sheathing material should be coated on all sides before application to prevent moisture pickup and improve dimensional stability. Remember the old timers did not expect their finishes to last forever and the varnish on varnish was renewed every four years (when the budget allowed).



lamontdc@adelphia.net

> Good old fashioned oil based paint consists
> of pigment, vehicle and thinner as
> distinguished from enamel(which adds varnish
> to the mix). Dry pigments are difficult to
> wet so they are "ground" in a
> "vehicle" such as japan or linseed
> oil. Natural pigments (iron oxide in all its
> different colors etc) do not fade as much as
> synthetic pigments and are the way to go if
> you can match your color. An internet search
> will reveal sources of natural pigments.
> Different Phases of "OF" Paint:
> 1. If you mix a small amount of pigment with
> a small amount of boiled linseed oil and a
> large amount of thinner you get a
> transparent stain. Vary the amount of
> pigment for the effect you want.
> 2. If you increase the amount of pigment you
> get a opaque stain ... this is what wooden
> car builders used under the varnish.
> 3. With a opaque pigment level adding more
> linseed oil gives you a good semi-gloss
> finish which will go to flat in a few years
> while the natural pigments will not fade
> from UV.
> 4. To produce a gloss finish, either go over
> the #3 color coat with a good varnish or add
> varnish to the mix. For a finish you can
> "look in to" the cover coat of
> varnish is the way to go.

> If you use BOILED Linseed Oil (BLO) as a
> primer on new wood (or even better on old
> wood) you will find that it soaks in to the
> soft spots forming an even base for the new
> paint that will not flake off. So-called
> wood primer contains pigments that sit on
> the surface and very limited ingredients
> that will soak in and seal the surface. BLO
> for some reason is a neglected item and
> everyone is ready to sell you super deluxe
> expensive primers for wood that don't do
> half as good a job. You can use BLO straight
> from the can or thin it for a faster set and
> use several coats. All sheathing material
> should be coated on all sides before
> application to prevent moisture pickup and
> improve dimensional stability. Remember the
> old timers did not expect their finishes to
> last forever and the varnish on varnish was
> renewed every four years (when the budget
> allowed).

Thanks for your advice it sounds as if you may be from the "Old School". We use BLO on our wooden turntable each year and its doing a good job of helping in its preservation. We have used it as a primer on some of the narrow gauge rolling stock. the wood was so old its hard to tell if the BLO helped, however we did get good coverage from a 5 gallon can of oil base paint. I will download your posting and add it to our "Book of knowledge"

davewolven@msn.com

I'll have to agree that getting the right color for red oxide is very frustrating, everything is on the pinkish side. After seeing the post on pigments I contacted Cleveland Pigment and Color. They supply a natural red oxide pigment, problem is they have a minimum order of $100 and that would be four, fifty pound sacks.

Does anyone have a general idea on how much pigment would be needed for a gallon of paint?

Richard Wilkens

> We are getting ready to paint a boxcar and
> some buildings at the NN Ry. And I have
> questions about red paint. I've been doing
> some research and what I'm hearing is that
> the new synthetic pigments turn pink after
> about 4 yours. That the old red lead pigment
> has been banned. The ideas now being kicked
> around are use a red oxide primer and then
> cover that with a clear satin covering.
> Using a red paint and then covering it with
> UV coating. Or repainting every 4 years. Any
> ideas out there?

> I'll have to agree that getting the right
> color for red oxide is very frustrating,
> everything is on the pinkish side. After
> seeing the post on pigments I contacted
> Cleveland Pigment and Color. They supply a
> natural red oxide pigment, problem is they
> have a minimum order of $100 and that would
> be four, fifty pound sacks.

> Does anyone have a general idea on how much
> pigment would be needed for a gallon of
> paint?

> Richard Wilkens

Unfortunately the only formula I could find is shown below;
One gallon of pure red-lead (20.3 lbs red lead in 5.62 lbs of linseed oil) without turpentine or other thinners) when applied to new steel surfaces will cover from 300 to 400 sq ft.

Some of the paint specs I went through specified 50% pigment by weight. Linseed oil weighs about 7.8 lbs/gal so you would add approx 4 lbs of iron oxide to each gallon of oil. The 200lbs of iron oxide would provide in excess of 50 gallons of paint. even more if you thin it to make painting easier and speed up drying.

lamontdc@adelphia.net

From Southern Pacific RR for No 4 Metalllic (for buildings. April 2, 1897, from Southern Pacific Common Standard Plans, Vol 5, published by Steam Age Equipment Co, 1997)

100 lbs of dry metalic (iron oxide)
24 lbs of dry clay
13 lbs of Litharge (lead, not quite red lead, darker than white flake)
10 ½ gallons of Linseed oil

This is a very brown mineral red, used by the Southern Pacific. Research suggests the pigment (Metalic) was from the Rawlins quarry in Wyoming.

Randy Hees

> I'll have to agree that getting the right
> color for red oxide is very frustrating,
> everything is on the pinkish side. After
> seeing the post on pigments I contacted
> Cleveland Pigment and Color. They supply a
> natural red oxide pigment, problem is they
> have a minimum order of $100 and that would
> be four, fifty pound sacks.

> Does anyone have a general idea on how much
> pigment would be needed for a gallon of
> paint?

> Richard Wilkens


http://spcrr.org
hees@ix.netcom.com

Dave, Thanks for the response. Since I posted my message I have found a source of pigment in 5 pound bags so I might give it a try.

Richard

> Unfortunately the only formula I could find
> is shown below;
> One gallon of pure red-lead (20.3 lbs red
> lead in 5.62 lbs of linseed oil) without
> turpentine or other thinners) when applied
> to new steel surfaces will cover from 300 to
> 400 sq ft.

> Some of the paint specs I went through
> specified 50% pigment by weight. Linseed oil
> weighs about 7.8 lbs/gal so you would add
> approx 4 lbs of iron oxide to each gallon of
> oil. The 200lbs of iron oxide would provide
> in excess of 50 gallons of paint. even more
> if you thin it to make painting easier and
> speed up drying.