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| Journal Lubrication poll https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5980 |
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| Author: | Bill Conklin [ Thu Jun 05, 2003 9:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | Journal Lubrication poll |
a) Does your steam locomotive use grease for driving axle journal lube, or oil ? b) What lubrication products are working well for you ? staybolt@bellsouth.net |
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| Author: | Kelly [ Thu Jun 05, 2003 11:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Journal Lubrication poll |
All of our driving boxes were grease lubricated, but we have converted all, except the inaccessible ones behind eccentrics to oil with standard car cellar pads modified to fit the space available in each cellar. This was done because of the difficulty in finding a suitable block grease for journals, as well as the basic problem behind grease lubrication, which is that the journal has to heat up (wear) before the grease will flow. We found axles that had run chronically at 200 degrees, running at ambient temperature the first day an oil cellar was installed. We use InterlubeÂ’s Journal Guard with complete satisfaction in all of our journal boxes. Strasburg Rail Road kelly@strasburgrailroad.com |
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| Author: | G. Mark Ray - TVRM [ Thu Jun 05, 2003 12:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Journal Lubrication poll |
> a) Does your steam locomotive use grease for > driving axle journal lube, or oil ? > b) What lubrication products are working > well for you ? Answers - a) Grease b) None I think the Strasburg has hit on the long term answer - Oil. TVRM Shop Updates by Steve Freer aw90@comcast.net |
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| Author: | Ron Larson [ Fri Jun 06, 2003 12:31 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Journal Lubrication poll |
> Answers - > a) Grease > b) None > I think the Strasburg has hit on the long > term answer - Oil. I agree. When we rebuilt the Tarantula Engine #2248 in 1991, it had already been converted to journal pads from grease cakes by Texas State Railroad. We installed a mechanical lubricator operated off the valve linkage and a piece of drilled copper tubing squirting oil on top of the pads from the rear of each cellar box. The engine has been running since that time with this system and has proven very satisfactory. The past 7 years or so, trip length is about 50 miles per day, 3 days per week in the spring and fall, and 5 days per week in the summer. Driving axles ran at ambient temperature, or just slightly warm. We used Texaco Journaltex 57, and later, Regal R+O 68 due less cost. The only problems we had happened when a lubricator pump failed and we didn't know it. If you use this system, install a good pump and perhaps a pressure indicator light in the cab for each line. Another way to keep tabs on the system and assist in setting pump output is to install small machinery sight glasses on the cellar boxes to keep track of the oil level in the cellar. Ron Larson Southwest Steam Locomotive swstmloco@aol.com |
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| Author: | Bill Conklin [ Fri Jun 06, 2003 3:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Interlube source ? |
Kelly, What weight (viscosity) is the Interlube and where do you source it ? Havent heard of the brand.. Bill staybolt@bellsouth.net |
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| Author: | Jack Anderson [ Fri Jun 06, 2003 4:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Journal Lubrication poll |
Our 5 locomotives are oil lubricated. We use Chevron Journal Bearing Oil, available locally. The response posted ahead of this one is on the right track, that of putting the oil in the cellars. As our rod locomotives are rebuilt, we are modifying the crown brasses. If the brass Is to be rebored and the oil groove at the top is shallow, we plug the oil holes on the top of the driving box with brass plugs which are driven in so they are flush with the ID of the brass, so during boring the plugs become part of the crown brass, making the brass completely smooth and putting in no oil grooves whatsoever. A mechanical oiler to the cellars is good if dependable; we use little pipe nipple and caps screwed to the frame at convenient locations, with a small hose drrected to the cellar. The cups do not necessarily need to be filled each day to keep the pad wet. Watch your cellars for oil drooling out the top as a guide of frequency. New crown brassed are doweled flush with brass plugs, then bored and not grooved. The reason for this was discovered in the early 1940's. It was found that the large oil groove at the top of the brass (where the oil pressure is highest) would cause the oil to be pumped up through the hollow dowel plugs, fill the top of the driving box, and leak away onto the roadbed. The other reason is that the oil groove breaks the film of oil at a critical location; the oil needs to re-form the film after passing the oil groove. Definitely, smooth brasses and cellar lubrication has worked very well for us. Thanks, Jack steamrr@mashell.com |
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| Author: | William L. Petitjean, P.E [ Sun Jun 08, 2003 12:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Journal Lubrication poll |
Hi Everyone: I think Ron and Jack have hit upon the best solutions. Either pump the oil on the pads or gravity feed it from accessible oil cups. I am not a big fan of light viscosity journal oils for driving box lubrication for two reasons. The pounding that is typical in driving boxes cannot be adequately cushioned by such a light oil. And, crown brass bearings generally operate in the boundary lubrication mode. Therefore, you want a very oily, high shear strength lubricant to minimize contact and wear. My research in the old books confirms this opinion. Journal oils are light so they can build up a dynamic film to separate the bearing from the journal in cars. Did you know that friction bearings and roller bearings have no performance difference above about 15 mph? The reason is the solid car journals build up their dynamic films at about that speed. Traditional heavy machinery oils used to be used for driving box oil cellars -- they are anywhere from SAE90 (ISO220) to about SAE140 (ISO460). They used to be made by blending Bright Stock with lighter neutral base oils. That is exactly what I do with Green Velvet Pin, Bearing & Journal oil. It is available in the following grades -- ISO220, ISO320 and ISO460. This is far more expensive than plain journal oil but will cushion your bearings much better. It has excellent water washing resistance because it also contains a significant amount of a light viscosity tackifier that gives the oil film great tenacity and hydrophobia. It should be noted that one old book claims that just because your bearings are running cool does not mean you are not wearing the bearing. Journal surface temperatures can be exceedingly hot without heating the bulk of the material. The correct viscosity and oiliness is the only way to minimize wear over the long term. One more thing. All the traditional bearing oils for this type of service were straight mineral oils without additives. The distinction is made when you consider most of today's oils are made for recirculating service. Most steam locomotive applications are non-recirculating service. Also, most steam locomotive bearings operate in the boundary lubrication mode. You don't need a bunch of additives! In fact some of the additives in these oils are now under review by the EPA because they contain heavy metals. Where, does all your oil go after it gets done lubricating your steam engine? It goes on the GROUND! Over time this may come back to haunt many operations if the local environmental agencies get a hold of your books. They will notice expenditures for a certain amount of lubricating oil. The next question will be, "where is it all now?" Your only answer will be to point out to the railroad tracks and say, "out there!" This could be a lot of trouble. I doubt anyone out there can tell you what is in their oil. But, I am certain they all contain proprietary additives packages, especially the R&O oil because R&O means rust and oxidation inhibited! Thus, all these oils are mystery oils that could nail your hide to the wall. Green Velvet "peanut butter & jelly" (PB&J) engine oil contains bright stock, neutral stock, polybutene and about 800 ppm petroleum dye to distinguish it from cylinder oil. That's it -- all of these ingredients are nontoxic and give you a better chance with the environmental people for two reasons. First, it is essentially nontoxic and breaks down in the environment. Second, it is especially formulated for open bearings so it won't drip or sling off the surfaces so you don't have to use as much to get better lubrication. Better lubrication means longer life of wear components. Using oil made especially for steam engine lubrication makes more sense. None of the lubricants I have seen listed here are really made for steam engines so their use is a compromise at best. Bill Petitjean > I agree. When we rebuilt the Tarantula > Engine #2248 in 1991, it had already been > converted to journal pads from grease cakes > by Texas State Railroad. We installed a > mechanical lubricator operated off the valve > linkage and a piece of drilled copper tubing > squirting oil on top of the pads from the > rear of each cellar box. The engine has been > running since that time with this system and > has proven very satisfactory. The past 7 > years or so, trip length is about 50 miles > per day, 3 days per week in the spring and > fall, and 5 days per week in the summer. > Driving axles ran at ambient temperature, or > just slightly warm. We used Texaco > Journaltex 57, and later, Regal R+O 68 due > less cost. > The only problems we had happened when a > lubricator pump failed and we didn't know > it. If you use this system, install a good > pump and perhaps a pressure indicator light > in the cab for each line. Another way to > keep tabs on the system and assist in > setting pump output is to install small > machinery sight glasses on the cellar boxes > to keep track of the oil level in the > cellar. > Ron Larson > Southwest Steam Locomotive petitinc@nwlink.com |
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| Author: | Dave Wantz [ Sun Jun 08, 2003 6:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Journal Lubrication poll |
I am in the process of making new driving boxes for the WC&C #1 at Mid-Continent and will make the brasses smooth for oil lubrication, But, we need a source of pads for use in the engines and cars. Some of the pads may need to be sized to the cellers for the driving boxes. Do you know of some sources for pads or can you give a method of making our own pads? Dave Wantz fwantz@pressenter.com |
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| Author: | Kelly [ Mon Jun 09, 2003 8:34 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Interlube source ? |
> Kelly, > What weight (viscosity) is the Interlube and > where do you source it ? Havent heard of the > brand.. > Bill I don't have viscosity info handy, but it comes from Interlube Corp. in Cincinnati, 513-531-1777. What we use is "Journal Guard AYG". Strasburg Rail Road kelly@strasburgrailroad.com |
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