a thread below asks what's going on at your railroad.

At Heber we just finished two weekends of Thomas.

The CMO has designated this the year of 'lipstick and rouge'--thereby setting a goal of dressing up the rolling stock. One of the projects is the wooden C&S caboose that was purchased with the Everett Rohrer 'Movie Train' collection. Based on good experiences reported here and elsewhere (CSRM) we will be using 'Peel Away' to strip the caboose to the bare wood.

My question is what would be the next steps?

The last installment of Glenn Guerra's series in L&RP had just a sidebar on "Paints and Varnishes" in which the following paragraph appears:

"There is one thing about wood that never changes: the paint won't last forever...As to paint types, and exactly how to go about the job, don't settle for the easiest, cheapest, or even the most technologically-advanced recommendations. I suggest contacting other museums that have wood railway equipment; find out what they use, how they use it, and what their results are."

So with the understanding that the caboose is exposed year-round to the elements and that Heber Valley is a tourist railroad (not likely to mix our own iron oxide in boiled linseed oil as based on the 1918 formula found in the back of...)what would be the first step after we are down to bare naked wood? would you sand the surface? use a penetrating sealer and/or surface primer (oil, epoxy, or water-based), with the shrinkage that has occured to the wood over the ninty plus years, would you caulk the T&G joints? what type of paint(oil, epoxy, or...)? how many coats are ideal before it's overkill? would you use a clear coat?

Please feel free to use any and all brand names in your recommendations. Can anyone refer me to other publications that would help? If you can recommend individuals who are available for email or phone consultation, please email me (i never post anonymously).

thanks,

sc 'doc' lewis


Heber Valley Railroad
utweyesguy@aol.com

One thing to consider, Doc, is the condition of the wood and soundness of the frame. Last I saw that car, it was packed full and I couldn't make a real inspection. If the carbody creaks and racks as you take it down the line,your best bet may be to remove the siding and tighten / brace / repair the car frame, after which using new wood siding which you would want to back, edge, and end prime before installing. If the roof is canvas you might want to consider seamless rubber.

Everybody has their preferences about paint - there are lots of good brands out there. Things to consider about wood as opposed to steel include the constantly changing size and shape of the wood, which prevent the use of hard coats which will crack and chip off, moisture in the wood which will need to escape through the paint membrane. House paints will chalk by design, so you can wash them off and get a new looking surface, but what will that do to the lettering? Automotive paints aren't known for flexibility and permeability.

I like to paint wooden cars with a brush, steel cars with a roller. I don't think you get the control and ability to pay attention to detail with a spray, it goes too fast. You also miss the historically appropriate patina of brush marks in the paint coat if you spray.

Whatever paint product system you choose, use primers, cover coats, and lettering paints that work well together and adhere. In other words, slect a system not a bunch of paints. I have used acrylics and oil based paints with good results on wood - ask people working on historic buildings near you what lasts best.

Good luck.

dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

> As to paint types, and exactly how
> to go about the job, don't settle for the
> easiest, cheapest, or even the most
> technologically-advanced recommendations. I
> suggest contacting other museums that have
> wood railway equipment; find out what they
> use, how they use it, and what their results
> are."

Doc, contact Jerry Sahnd of the Friends of the C&TS - the Friends keep over 100 pieces of wood-sheathed equipment painted.

Now, allow me to rant a bit. (Not aimed at you, Doc, aimed at the writer of the above quote.)

The above quote is SO myopic.

The only applicable experience for painting wood-sheathed railway equipment exposed to the elements is other railway preservation groups?

Would someone PLEASE hand me a break?

Wood exposed to the elements isn't exactly uncommon. Look on each side of the street as you drive around, chances are you'll see wood exposed to the elements and protected by paint.

On HOUSES.

To limit ourselves to looking only at railway museums, on this or any other issue, (a) is sadly typical and (b) ignores so much knowledge out there in many different areas.

Paint on wood? Who better to talk to than a variety of top-quality house painters? "Old House Journal" has a number of excellent how-to articles in its back issues.

There is no need to reinvent the wheel just because it sits on eight of them, not a foundation.

Rant concluded.

JAC

I am no expert painter but have been involved in a bit of painting in the last 20 years. Getting the surface read has always been when makes the paint job last. That has not always meant take it down to bare metal/wood either. The other part is indoor storage once you paint your equipment which is not always an option.

Tommy

I will chime in just a bit here. As a licensed general building contractor for many years I have seen many changes in the paint industry. First the statement about wood houses is true. They are all painted. What isn't mentioned though is the amount of maintenance that it takes to keep them painted. In Southern California I think this cycle is around 5-6 years. Of course California has these wonderful, Thanks EPA, reformulated paints.

As was stated many times above, prep is the key to a succesful job. Next is the quality of the paint and finally the maintenance that it will receive during its service life.

Still with the reformulated paints, industrial paints are still offered. These seem to not have been changed and still have the good solvents and solids. The reformulations have been aimed at the home owners but not industry.

Just like your family car if these rail cars do not have regular paint maintenance then the paint will fail no matter what you do in prep and how much you spend on paint. Periodic wash and wax will do wonders in keeping these surfaces in top shape for many years past what may be expected in the life of the job.

> Just like your family car if these rail cars
> do not have regular paint maintenance then
> the paint will fail no matter what you do in
> prep and how much you spend on paint.
> Periodic wash and wax will do wonders in
> keeping these surfaces in top shape for many
> years past what may be expected in the life
> of the job.

Now that's an interesting idea - I haven't tried waxing the wood siding. Has anybody actually tried waxing painted T&G boards? How much does it help preserve the finish? What product do you use, and how do you apply it to a rough surface with chamfers every two inches? And how do you remove the wax if the car ever needs to be repainted? Inquiring minds want to know!

Back in the daze of Yore ...When wooden palaces rode the rails and there was money to be made, does any one have any information on the procedures used to maintain the wooden cars. I have heard stories that the paint and varnish was renewed every four years. I don't think you could reasonably expect a normal enamel or varnish (non-epoxy, non-urethane) to last any longer then that outdoors ???


lamontdc@adelphia.net

> Back in the daze of Yore ...When wooden
> palaces rode the rails and there was money
> to be made, does any one have any
> information on the procedures used to
> maintain the wooden cars. I have heard
> stories that the paint and varnish was
> renewed every four years. I don't think you
> could reasonably expect a normal enamel or
> varnish (non-epoxy, non-urethane) to last
> any longer then that outdoors ???

I have a copy of the paint book for a local interurban line. This book provides a record of the history of each cars painting from when the cars were brand new in 1910 up through the late 20Â’s. The cars were originally wood sided Niles interurban cars that were destroyed in a fire in 1918 and rebuilt as metal cars. It seems that the painter liked to experiment and thus there are many notes about one side being painted with one brand and the other with something else. From what I can gather it seems that the cars were in the paint shop at least once every two years for at least a new coat of varnish. When a car was repainted the existing paint would be burned off and then the bodies would receive a couple coats of the base color. Lettering and stripping would be applied and then the whole body would be varnished. At that point for the next several years if the car was not involved in any mishaps it would be washed and a new coat of varnish would be applied. When a mishap occurred or a major fire the car was repainted. Factoring in mishaps, fires, and paint scheme changes few if any of the cars went more than maybe six years without being totally repainted. After looking at the several years of painting information I came to the conclusion that the key to making a paint job last was frequent cleaning and periodic varnishing. The varnish became the wearing surface and took the brunt of the abuse. The nice thing about the varnish is that one knew when in needed to be recoated as the shine would be gone even after washing.

I was told that on the steel bodies the paint held up better but here again the company changed their paint scheme every six to eight years so the cars were repainted quite frequently. After the depression the cars were sent in for a new coat of varnish every year. I can note that color pictures of wooden trailers, which were infrequently used after World War II and thus were not repainted or revarnished were very faded from oxidation. However, the trailers were kept clean and did not show signs of peeling.


Shays@aquaeng.com

> I have a copy of the paint book for a local
> interurban line. This book provides a record
> of the history of each cars painting from
> when the cars were brand new in 1910 up
> through the late 20Â’s.

What a fantastic piece of historic documentation!

My experience with interurban cars (LSE) has been that on the wood cars the exterior poplar sheathing ws given a coat of red lead on the inside(fungicide) a coat of sandable primer, dead flat color coat (color ground in japan, a vehicle not a geographic location) striping and numbers and varnish. When we sandblasted LSE167 (steel car) we went layer by layer, under the years of house paint we found the badly faded orange and under that a heavy coat of sandable primer. When we took the sandable primer off we found some of the most pathetic surface quality on steel plate I ever saw (1915) full of pits scabs and slivers. They must have spent a lot of labor sanding that all down especially around all the rivets. We did find unfaded paint in the motormans compartment, matched the colors, painted the car and caught hell from everyone that knew that the LSE cars were never painted that color! Two things we never found were the color red that was used prior to 1925 on the letterboard or if the the stripes and numbers were dark brown or black

lamontdc@adelphia.net

Doc; 40 years of taking care of our 2500 has made us believe that Sherwin Williams Industrial is the beat for oue purpose.
A member of our park board was on a vacation tour and gathered all the information she could from
other locations where they had engines to care for. The general concensus was that no amount
of care can substitute for shelter and that the best paint was SW Industrial.
As for undercoat on wood, I suggest that you ask SW what they recommend.

Jim

> a thread below asks what's going on at your
> railroad.

> At Heber we just finished two weekends of
> Thomas.

> The CMO has designated this the year of
> 'lipstick and rouge'--thereby setting a goal
> of dressing up the rolling stock. One of the
> projects is the wooden C&S caboose that
> was purchased with the Everett Rohrer 'Movie
> Train' collection. Based on good experiences
> reported here and elsewhere (CSRM) we will
> be using 'Peel Away' to strip the caboose to
> the bare wood.

> My question is what would be the next steps?

> The last installment of Glenn Guerra's
> series in L&RP had just a sidebar on
> "Paints and Varnishes" in which
> the following paragraph appears:

> "There is one thing about wood that
> never changes: the paint won't last
> forever...As to paint types, and exactly how
> to go about the job, don't settle for the
> easiest, cheapest, or even the most
> technologically-advanced recommendations. I
> suggest contacting other museums that have
> wood railway equipment; find out what they
> use, how they use it, and what their results
> are."

> So with the understanding that the caboose
> is exposed year-round to the elements and
> that Heber Valley is a tourist railroad (not
> likely to mix our own iron oxide in boiled
> linseed oil as based on the 1918 formula
> found in the back of...)what would be the
> first step after we are down to bare naked
> wood? would you sand the surface? use a
> penetrating sealer and/or surface primer
> (oil, epoxy, or water-based), with the
> shrinkage that has occured to the wood over
> the ninty plus years, would you caulk the
> T&G joints? what type of paint(oil,
> epoxy, or...)? how many coats are ideal
> before it's overkill? would you use a clear
> coat?

> Please feel free to use any and all brand
> names in your recommendations. Can anyone
> refer me to other publications that would
> help? If you can recommend individuals who
> are available for email or phone
> consultation, please email me (i never post
> anonymously).

> thanks,

> sc 'doc' lewis


rrfanjim@mvn.net

I often wondered why the Philadelphia trolleys
(mostly metal, with wood and canvas roofs)
deteriorated so quickly in outdoor storeage at
the museum. The transit company wasn't able to
store all the cars indoors, and even the few
subway lines had most of their operations
outdoors. How did the paint and canvas survive
in real life? A 1930's movie by Philadelphia
Rapid Transit gave a clue. They tried to give
the cars a General Overhaul every 3 years,
including stripping, painting, and new canvas.
The busses of that era even had their side skins
removed so attention would be paid to the framing.
No wonder they went bankrupt!

104577.651@compuserve.com

> What a fantastic piece of historic
> documentation!

> My experience with interurban cars (LSE) has
> been that on the wood cars the exterior
> poplar sheathing ws given a coat of red lead
> on the inside(fungicide) a coat of sandable
> primer, dead flat color coat (color ground
> in japan, a vehicle not a geographic
> location) striping and numbers and varnish.
> When we sandblasted LSE167 (steel car) we
> went layer by layer, under the years of
> house paint we found the badly faded orange
> and under that a heavy coat of sandable
> primer. When we took the sandable primer off
> we found some of the most pathetic surface
> quality on steel plate I ever saw (1915)
> full of pits scabs and slivers. They must
> have spent a lot of labor sanding that all
> down especially around all the rivets. We
> did find unfaded paint in the motormans
> compartment, matched the colors, painted the
> car and caught hell from everyone that knew
> that the LSE cars were never painted that
> color! Two things we never found were the
> color red that was used prior to 1925 on the
> letterboard or if the the stripes and
> numbers were dark brown or black

After I got home from work last night I pulled out the copy of the paint book that I mentioned yesterday. I tracked several cars through out the book to see what additional information I could glean. I learned several things. The cars were built in 1910 and the first major repaint was in 1914. This repaint included one coat of oxide red, two coats of Pullman body color, application of gold leaf, and two coats of varnish. About two years later the cars returned to the paint shop. Two treatments were given depending on the condition of the car. Some of the cars had paint touched up and then a coat of varnish and other cars receive one coat of Pullman body color and two coats of varnish. Very few of the cars that received the additional coat of Pullman body color seemed to note application of gold leaf so I am guessing that the gold lettering and striping were painted around. After this it seems that the few cars that survived the 1918 carbarn fire received the one coat of oxide red, two coats of Pullman body color, Dulux lettering and stripping, and two coats of varnish about three years after receiving the single coat of Pullman body color. With the fire most cars were rebuilt with metal sides and the painting was less frequent. At this point the line also began changing paint schemes every six or eight years meaning cars were repainted at those intervals. It looks as if after the first painting of the metal cars they were then brought in every year or two for touchup and a new coat of varnish.

Looking at notes on wooden freight cars, it looks as though they were only repainted on an as needed basis with a total fleet repainting approximately ten years after their purchase. The interurbans were in the public eye and were kept looking new. Looking at photos of freight cars they were not as well maintained but they were not in shabby condition either. Lettering looked to be faded but paint was not peeled or missing while cars were in service.


Shays@aquaeng.com

> How did the paint and canvas survive

I was told by an old-timer long since gone that canvas roofs were done as follows (Cleveland, OH area);
A thick layer of WHITE LEAD was troweled on the roof planking. The damp canvas was laid over this and the white lead ROLLED through the canvas inside to outside. The canvas was then nailed and shrank to a tight fit. Since there is no thinner to evaporate there was no shrinkage of the white lead therefore no tensile stresses built up to cause cracking. The roof was then painted. The same method was used to seal cabin roofs on boats. The owners placed great emphasis on keeping the roofs watertight.

When you look at the service life of a streetcar it is amazing they lasted as long as they did. Lottsa miles, low floors to pick up water and dirt and salt. Try operating your auto the same way and see if it lasts as long. The Cleveland Railway 1200 series cars that were used on SHRT made it into the 50's ...roofs maintained and the cars were not bad above the belt rail, the floors, sides,bolster bracing and the knees around the depressed center doors finally went. There were patches on the patches near the end and some of the fan trips at speed going down the "hill" were quite a thrill ... literally an old bucket of rivets rattling down the ROW.



lamontdc@adelphia.net

By the way what Interurban line are you talking about?

Perhaps you can make a copy for a museum that is preserving such Niles cars?



ted_miles@nps.gov