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| Traction question https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6055 |
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| Author: | Alan Levy [ Fri Jun 13, 2003 11:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Traction question |
Just curious.... What is the reason that some traction systems are standard gauge and others are wider (ie Phila)? Before anyone points it out I realize that there were a couple narrow systems as well. Have a good weekend, Alan Levy AlanL759@aol.com |
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| Author: | Fred Krock [ Fri Jun 13, 2003 11:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Traction question |
>According to the historical literature, a number of reasons exist for the different track gauges used by traction companies. The 42 inch gauge lines usually were electrified cable car lines. The largest 42 inch gauge operations were in Los Angeles, Denver, and Portland, Oregon. One story explaining the broad gauge lines was that the city fathers authorized streetcar tracks in city streets assuming that local drayage wagons could use them when the streetcars did not. Many city streets were not paved in those days. In practice wagons were not able to use the tracks. Reportedly the most common wagon gauge in Pennsylvania was 5 feet 2 1/2 inches which became the common trolley gauge. This also supposedly is the reason for the 5 feet 4 1/2 inch gauge in Baltimore. In a few cases the city fathers did not want freight trains running down Main Street so the franchise issued to the streetcar company specified any gauge except railroad standard gauge. This might explain some of the really strange gauges such as 4 feet 10 inches. Today Bay Area Rapid Transit (San Francisco) uses a gauge of 5 feet 6 inches. Compatibility with existing equipment was not a consideration. Wind tunnel tests showed that the broad gauge would give a better ride in the prevailing cross-wind on many of the elevated tracks. You pays yer money and takes yer choice. fkrock@pacbell.net |
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| Author: | Alan Levy [ Sat Jun 14, 2003 1:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Traction question |
Thanks! AlanL759@aol.com |
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| Author: | JimBoylan [ Sat Jun 14, 2003 3:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Traction question |
As a Philadelphian, I've heard both the "fit the waggons" and "prevent through railroad trains" explainations for the "Pennsylvania Broad Gauge". But why is the City gauge (PTC/PRT) 5' 2-1/4" while the suburban gauge (Red Arrow Lines) is 5' 2-1/2"? I've also read that the Camden and South Jersey trolley gauge of 5' 0" was because of the gauge of their local waggons! Were horsey waggons really different on opposite sides of the Delaware River? (5' is the old pre Civil War railroad gauge in the American South.) Toronto, Ontario trolleys are about 4' 10-7/8" and St. Louis, Mo. was very close. Could the oddity be that they're Metric? That's very close to 1-1/2 meters. Crazy Laws: In Dunkirk, N.Y., no railroad may have the same gauge as any other railroad entering town! 104577.651@compuserve.com |
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| Author: | F, Reese [ Sun Jun 15, 2003 9:57 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Traction question |
> As a Philadelphian, I've heard both the > "fit the > waggons" and "prevent through > railroad trains" > explainations for the "Pennsylvania > Broad Gauge". > But why is the City gauge (PTC/PRT) 5' > 2-1/4" > while the suburban gauge (Red Arrow Lines) > is 5' > 2-1/2"? I've also read that the Camden > and South > Jersey trolley gauge of 5' 0" was > because of the > gauge of their local waggons! Were horsey > waggons really different on opposite sides > of the > Delaware River? (5' is the old pre Civil War > railroad gauge in the American South.) > Toronto, Ontario trolleys are about 4' > 10-7/8" > and St. Louis, Mo. was very close. Could the > oddity be that they're Metric? That's very > close > to 1-1/2 meters. > Crazy Laws: In Dunkirk, N.Y., no railroad > may > have the same gauge as any other railroad > entering town! It should be noted that all of the traction lines across the southern tier of Pennsylvania were broad gage, with the later exception of Johnstown which was rebuilt as standard gage after the famous Johnstown Flood. frankree@verizon.net |
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| Author: | Brian Norden [ Sun Jun 15, 2003 3:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Traction question |
> The 42 inch gauge lines usually were > electrified cable car lines. The largest 42 > inch gauge operations were in Los Angeles, > Denver, and Portland, Oregon. There were some small electric operations here in Los Angeles, and I believe Oregon, that used the 42" gauge and did not start with cable car lines. A number of early horsecar lines in Los Angeles and elsewhere were built to 42" gauge. So when these lines converted in electric the owners may not have wanted to rebuild the track. An example of this was Santa Barbara which later converted in standard gauge. The influenace of the 42" gauge city system in Los Angeles was significant. Even the competing city line was built as 42" gauge. The earliest interurban lines out of Los Angeles were essentially built as extensions of the city system; the ownership may not have been the same. These interurban lines were to Pasadena, to Hollywood and Santa Monica, and to San Pedro. A 3' gauge steam road converted to a 42" electric line in order to operate on the city car lines to reach city center. All of this changed in 1902 when Henry Huntington built the interurban line to Long Beach and it was built standard gauge. After that all new lines were standard gauge and older lines were converted to standard gauge. Brian Norden bnorden49@earthlink.net |
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| Author: | Erik Ledbetter [ Mon Jun 16, 2003 8:55 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Traction question |
> One story explaining the broad gauge lines > was that the city fathers authorized > streetcar tracks in city streets assuming > that local drayage wagons could use them > when the streetcars did not. ... In > practice wagons were not able to use the > tracks. Actually this principle seems to have worked pretty well in Baltimore, MD--I've seen images of long lines of drays with their wheels running in the flageways of the broad-gauge Baltimore streetcar lines... eledbetter@rypn.org |
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| Author: | ge13031 [ Mon Jun 16, 2003 9:10 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Traction history |
It's a darn good thing Ohio stuck to Standard gauge for its interurban lines. A study conducted by the War Department in WW1 seriously considered tranferring a large amount of freight traffic to the electric lines in case of steam RR failure to perform. At the time the fairly complete network had a lot of the state covered. Needless to say this move would have driven the numerous city fathers right up a wall! lamontdc@adelphia.net |
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| Author: | Phil Mulligan [ Mon Jun 16, 2003 11:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Traction history |
Funny, the subject came up at a seminar last Saturday. Nobody had the answer. I had surmised most PA trolleys were wide gauge so either the RR's couldn't use the street railway tracks (NIMBY theory) or the street railways could not compete with the steam RR's. (monopoly theory) It makes sense since, when the first street passenger railway was authorised in the 1850's, horses moved steam RR cars in the streets of Philadelphia. Then the question arises, why were the Northeast PA street railways RR gauge (56.5") and not PA trolley gauge? Electric City Trolley Museum Association |
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| Author: | Thomas Manz [ Mon Jun 16, 2003 11:53 am ] |
| Post subject: | Mixed gauges |
> Crazy Laws: In Dunkirk, N.Y., no railroad > may have the same gauge as any other railroad > entering town! In the 19th century, it was considered good politics to keep railroads from having through service. Mixed gauges meant transfer business for the teamsters, warehouses, hotels, restaurants, etc. tr2manz@frontiernet.net |
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| Author: | Ted Miles [ Mon Jun 16, 2003 12:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Traction history |
Also lets remember that the cable Car Lines here in San Francisco are still 42". In addition there were other standard gauge cable lines, such as pre 1906 Market Street, one of those cars still exists. But as a body only, not likely to run again. ted_miles@nps.gov |
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| Author: | Fred Krock [ Mon Jun 16, 2003 3:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Traction history |
> If you want the exotic, the Western Railway Museum has a 5 foot gauge cable car that ran in San Francisco on the Pacific Avenue line until 1929. fkrock@pacbell.net |
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| Author: | Brian Norden [ Mon Jun 16, 2003 11:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Traction history |
> If you want the exotic, the Western Railway > Museum has a 5 foot gauge cable car that ran in > San Francisco on the Pacific Avenue line until > 1929. Orange Empire also has one of the ex-Sutter Street 5'-gauge trailers. It came to us from Knott's Berry farm. Knott's had placed the body on a 42"-gauge truck. From what we've been told by students of early San Francisco Bay area car builders these trailers were orginally built as horsecars before there were cable cars. Brian Norden bnorden49@earthlink.net |
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