Would somebody please post a photo, or series of photos, of the B6sa that was recovered from a demolished factory in Pennsylvania? The loco is, I believe, at the W&W, but supposedly in very poor condition. In lieu of other PRR locomotives ever running again, I am wondering if she's rebuildable or even worth the investment. What are her owner's plans for her and what remains of her? Any information from a reliable source would be appreciated.

glueck@maine.edu

I do not have photos handy, but here's what I DO know:

The PRR 60 was acquired by Historic Red Clay Valley, Inc. (operators of the W&W) in the mid-1980s at the end of a decade-long steam-acquisition binge that had everything from GM&N 4-6-2 425 (now at the Reading & Northern) to CNJ 0-6-0 113 to US Navy 0-6-0T 3 to AB&A 0-6-0 58 to CP 4-6-4 2839 (stored, not owned) at the Marshallton enginehouse (or stashed in sidings along the W&W. She had been stored, rusting away, under a highway bridge near Harmarville (near Pittsburgh) since 1952. It was donated to HRCV, and as I recall they got hit with thousands in overweight fines during shipment, despite a well-qualified mover being in charge. The engine, I believe, is currently owned by the owners of the trackside office complex in Hockessin where she now sits, cosmetically restored, along with a caboose.

Basically, the loco is as much a shell as you're likely to find. Much of what hadn't rusted off the loco was removed for movement and/or asbestos abatement. I would NEVER call any steam restoration project impossible, but given the "waiting list" of far more "qualified" steam projects in the region (Wilmington & Western's 4-4-0 98 and 2-6-0 92, a savior for Navy 3 now in Lewes, stabilization of the outdoor exhibits at the B&O Museum, and even the PRR side with 0-6-0 643 at Williams Grove and 1361 at Steamtown), I would loudly dissuade anyone from even attempting any more than the mild cosmetic restoration #60's Hockessin owners have given her.

lner4472@bcpl.net

This old girl is worn out, as far as running her again figure on jacking up the headlight and replacing everything down to the railhead. I am sure it could be done but what would someone do with a 5 million dollar 0-6-0? The present owner has done a fine job at keeping enough paint on her to prevent her from getting worse. We are talking about on of the roughest locomotives you will every find.

Tom

#60 at Steam Locomotive dot Info

Tom, as much as I hate to agree, you're dead on with your assessment of the #60. But I still think she's a cool engine, despite her condition, since she's the last of her class. If I ever hit the powerball, I'm going to ask Matt Minker if he'll sell the #60 to me, and I'll make her run again, courtesy of Strasburg. Not much of her will be original, but as long as someone has a spare set of B6sa prints laying around.... Richard, give me a couple of days to get some pics together of #60. I've got some somewhere I'll post. Seth

> This old girl is worn out, as far as running
> her again figure on jacking up the headlight
> and replacing everything down to the
> railhead. I am sure it could be done but
> what would someone do with a 5 million
> dollar 0-6-0? The present owner has done a
> fine job at keeping enough paint on her to
> prevent her from getting worse. We are
> talking about on of the roughest locomotives
> you will every find.

> Tom


Wilmington & Western RR

Richard, give me a couple of days to get
> some pics together of #60. I've got some
> somewhere I'll post. Seth

Thanks, Alex, Seth, and Tom, for the photos and information. Yeah, keep buying those Powerball Tickets. All railfans should. My first would be either the N&W Roanoke locos, the B6sa, or the C&O Hudson. Unfortunately, they don't sell Powerball Tickets in Maine, only Mega-bucks. But, "a million here, a million there, and soon you're talking about serious money!" (Shamelessly stolen quote)


glueck@maine.edu

Better idea. How about we get every railfan who buys lottery tickets to by railfan tickets instead. Then when they win they get to designate which locomotive the money goes to. They get a nice plaque and a copy of the builders plate maybe, and a cab ride in their favourite locomotive, and we all get a lot more working steam. Better than regular powerball? Maybe we have put famous locomotive logos and numbers on the balls, and have Doyle McCormic do the drawing, (or the rail celeb of your choice.)

"Today's winner is SP 4449, N&W 1218, SP&S 400, B&O 25, SLSF 1522." Could be fun?

Sincerely,
David Ackerman

(Note, the preceeding post is meant entirely in the manner of a whimsical jest, and should not be taken to be a serious recomendation, or with any disrespect to any of the individuals or artifacts mentioned.)

david_ackerman@yahoo.com

> My
> first would be either the N&W Roanoke
> locos, the B6sa, or the C&O Hudson.

This brings up something that I've been grumbling about for a long time.

By "the N&W Roanoke locos" I hope you mean the 4-8-0s in the scrapyard and are not including the 611. I found the 611 as fun to watch as the next guy, but if she were to be retubed, where the heck would you find a railroad long and heavy enough to run her? Same question for something the size of a 4-6-4. Let's face it, the mainline railroads don't like steam excursions. Judgements on that aside, it's a fact, so spending money to restore any "big" engine that needs a mainline to run on is, frankly, a waste.

There are hundreds of smaller locomotives that are languishing because of a lack of funds. Most of them have a place they could run -- the steamer we have at SCRM is a good example. She's a relatively small, 87-ton 4-6-0. Right now, she'd have three miles to run on, and by the end of the year should have five. If one-half of the money being wasted on just one of the big engines like the NKP 465, Milwaukee 261, SP 4449, etc. were spent on our #44, we'd have her running.

Big engines are impressive, yes. But does it really make sense to restore a locomotive that can only run on the mainline, when most mainlines are going to be closed to steam? Why not take those scarce resources and put them into several smaller locomotives, possibly that could be trucked or moved by flatcar to museums or shortlines who would love to have the opportunity to run steam?

The South Carolina Railroad Museum
mconrad@compuzone.net

If one-half of the money being
> wasted on just one of the big engines like
> the NKP 465, Milwaukee 261, SP 4449, etc.
> were spent on our #44, we'd have her
> running.

In general I agree that the age of big mainline restoration is passing fast, and that new such projects are ill-advised.

That said, it seems odd to me to single out these specific groups for "waste", when they are among the few who do have good relationships with host railroads and solid long-term records of survival and achievement. I wouldn't pick these organizations as my poster children for the "all dressed up and nowhere to go" club.

eledbetter@rypn.org

Hmmmm. The owner of PRR B6sb #1670 is one of the participants in Powerball which "benefits older Pennsylvanians"

Could we consider a 1916 Juniata an "older Pennsylvanian"

Electric City Trolley Museum Association

In the meantime, here's a picture I took last fall of Number 60.

> Tom, as much as I hate to agree, you're dead
> on with your assessment of the #60. But I
> still think she's a cool engine, despite her
> condition, since she's the last of her
> class. If I ever hit the powerball, I'm
> going to ask Matt Minker if he'll sell the
> #60 to me, and I'll make her run again,
> courtesy of Strasburg. Not much of her will
> be original, but as long as someone has a
> spare set of B6sa prints laying around....
> Richard, give me a couple of days to get
> some pics together of #60. I've got some
> somewhere I'll post. Seth



acp19809@yahoo.com

> In general I agree that the age of big
> mainline restoration is passing fast, and
> that new such projects are ill-advised.

> That said, it seems odd to me to single out
> these specific groups for "waste",
> when they are among the few who do have good
> relationships with host railroads and solid
> long-term records of survival and
> achievement. I wouldn't pick these
> organizations as my poster children for the
> "all dressed up and nowhere to go"
> club.

Your point is well taken. However, you don't seem to have quite understood what I was geting at.

My point is, why waste scarce resources of money, skill, and talent on some big behemouth that will be steamed up maybe four or five times a year at most? It seems to me that those resources would be better invested in a smaller engine that would have a chance to run EVERY WEEKEND. It just strikes me as a real waste to have some big 4-8-4 sitting in the roundhouse for months on end between the odd weekend outing, when with about the same money and manpower you could run a nice little 4-6-0 every Saturday.

The South Carolina RR Museum
mconrad@compuzone.net

Hi Matt;

Two things to think about:

1) If group thoughts and emotions swing like a pendulum, who says that in, say, 15 years things will not be totally backwards to conditions today?

I remember Phil Jago getting told by CPR that they "wished you guys would keep your trains in your basements" (referring to a wish to run Ex. CPR 1201 on their tracks) and now we have 2816 gracing the rails.

2) Return on investment - I know of a group that wants to restore a little 0-4-0 with almost no hope of recovering any of the restoration costs. Why not go for something that can run excursions and hopefully at least make some money? What is needed are financial analysts with crystal balls :-)

The only constant in life is change - and directions of change are not that hard to predict - look around you - now we have groups trying to get trucks off the highways onto railways, while 30 years ago they were trying to get railways off the rails and onto trucks...

John Stewart
Ottawa, Canada.

> It just
> strikes me as a real waste to have some big
> 4-8-4 sitting in the roundhouse for months
> on end between the odd weekend outing, when
> with about the same money and manpower you
> could run a nice little 4-6-0 every
> Saturday.


freewrl-1@rogers.com

> 1) If group thoughts and emotions swing like
> a pendulum, who says that in, say, 15 years
> things will not be totally backwards to
> conditions today?

Possible, but highly unlikely.

> I remember Phil Jago getting told by CPR
> that they "wished you guys would keep
> your trains in your basements"
> (referring to a wish to run Ex. CPR 1201 on
> their tracks) and now we have 2816 gracing
> the rails.

OK, let me clarify again.

First, I'm a firm believer in owning your own railroad. If you've got a piece of railroad equipment (no matter what drives it) and don't own a place to run it -- or even to park it -- you're a fool IMHO. This applies as much to PVs as to steam engines.

The locomotives I'm advocating for operational restoration are those with a gaurunteed place to run. These egines are the ones that are owned by organizations that also OWN a railroad -- not lease a railroad or rely on the good graces of a class I or even a shortline. Since most organizations that own their own railroad as well as at least one locomotive can't afford to mantain their track to anything much better than FRA Class III, most of the larger locomotives would be impractical to operate on them.

In short, before you get any size locomotive running, make sure you've got a reliable place to run her!

The South Carolina RR Museum
mconrad@compuzone.net

I doubt there are many, if any, truly practical restorations. If it were practical it would have been kept up in the first place, so it wouldn't be in need of a major restoration anyway.

The two biggest driving forces are usually passion, and ego (financial stability - let alone gain, often takes dead last). Big engines fire both emotions in larger groups, while little ones manage this only if it's "yours".

Of course this is coming from a guy who spent a good part of Sunday afternoon hand beading a single 3" boiler tube w/ a 2# hammer and homemade tool. (yes I rolled it manually too, just glad I only had one leaking - welcome to relearning 19th Century skills)

> Your point is well taken. However, you don't
> seem to have quite understood what I was
> geting at.

> My point is, why waste scarce resources of
> money, skill, and talent on some big
> behemouth that will be steamed up maybe four
> or five times a year at most? It seems to me
> that those resources would be better
> invested in a smaller engine that would have
> a chance to run EVERY WEEKEND. It just
> strikes me as a real waste to have some big
> 4-8-4 sitting in the roundhouse for months
> on end between the odd weekend outing, when
> with about the same money and manpower you
> could run a nice little 4-6-0 every
> Saturday.

Matt,
Your points are well taken concerning restoring a small or medium sized locomotive and operating it every weekend for several miles at relatively low speeds (10-30 mph). These operations are a valuable tool to educate the public in the ways of railroading, in general, and the mysterious world of steam locomotion, in particular. I will go out of my way to support and visit these venues but they only go so far in representing the abilities and possibilities of steam. Operations like the Grand Canyon, C&TS and the D&SNG are perfect examples of small to medium sized steam handling full tonnage trains just as they did during steam's heyday. These are soul-satisfying experiences because they accurately depict steam at its finest. This is the same reason that some of us among the steam enthusiast ranks prefer to "waste" our time and resources on a behemoth 4-8-4 that might only operate several times a year. I have been riding behind BIG steam since 1962 on mainlines at track speed.....in excess of 60 mph on most trips and WELL in excess of 60 mph on many others. No offense but the only memorable experience that I have ever had under the conditions that you offer was on the Reader in 1970 when 2-6-2 #108 dragged about 15-18 loads through the Arkansas woods sounding like a big, old freight hog in the process. How many memorable experiences have I had with the "behemoths" on the mainline?.......at least one on every trip that I have ever ridden. For some of us "too much is just enough". That's why some people are into diesels, some steam, others tractions, still others passenger trains and then there are the "bus people". I don't judge any of them but I do know what I like and that is rocketing down the mainline with a big train at track speed. I savor every time that I can partake of this particular experience and re-live those truly memorable times in my head while waiting for the next one to come along. We're all different but thank goodness there are still enough of us interested in steam that we have many fine operating examples still with us today in many gauges, wheel arrangements and size. See you wherever steam lives.
Don C.

milw261@sbcglobal.com