Most every part of the country now has a number of empty "big box" buildings (K-Marts, etc.) as the retail chains attempt to devour each other. These buildings often go empty for years, deteriorating in the process.

With that in mind, a few of the buildings would seem to be a good venue for large model railroads. Rather than the typical mish mash of equipment running through mythical towns, however, these large spaces, if available, could be used for accurate re-creations of real historic places. Even huge terminals, like Cheyenne, could probably be built within them.

If opened to the public as an educational, historic exhibit, rather than a closed private club for train nuts, I think some grant funding could possibly be available to the project, to help with the large cost. The layout would have to depict a local scene to be credible; building Cheyenne in Buffalo probably would not fly.

No doubt there would be many problems to resolve but it just might be another way to extend our field of interest. Such an public exhibit might also help revitalize a dying retail area also, as it would attract visitors. Considering that many model railroaders are software engineers, it shouldn't be too hard to have the layout computer controlled, to minimize the need for full staffing all the time.

Any thoughts? Has it been done already?

ryarger@rypn.org

>Has it been done already? <
More than 20 years ago, a Detroit (Mich.) club
bought an old movie theatre for this purpose.

In my neighborhood (SouthEast Pa.), the owners
are usually willing to sit on the property for a
very long time until they find a buyer with real
money. Often the "sitter" aquired the property at
a low price in an "inside" deal from the failed
previous owner. There are too many cases of
another property finally being sold at full price
to erase the dreams of the "sitters". Still,
there are exceptions when the stubborn one dies
and some of the heirs want cash. Then, the only
way to split the estate is to sell the property
NOW!
A long shot to watch for: the end stores at
shopping centers (that almost look like they're
tacked on) are often owned by the store and not
the center. If that chain fails, it could be
treated differently than just one store in a large
center. (Sears, Robuck & Co., for example, likes
to own their stores in someone else's shopping
center.)


104577.651@compuserve.com

> Any thoughts? Has it been done already?

You might be surprised if you started contacting outfits seeking to put to use a store that has been vacant for awhile. I know of several cases where "chains" are holding empty stores to keep competition out. I was also surprised that most landlords did not accept any bargain offers ...it was like you wanted to reopen a lost gold mine. I really hate to even bring "gummint" into the picture but you might want to check with your local rehab people for the best deal. Remembering LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION and zoning you never know 'till you try.


lamontdc@adelphia.net

> I know of several cases where
> "chains" are holding empty stores
> to keep competition out.

That's actually quite common - WalMart, for example, will move from one location to a larger one nearby, and keep the lease so that a competitor can't locate in the old building.

That's the real reason most of these locations are empty. It's not that the owners can't find a lessee.

And with leases running AT LEAST $10 per square foot per month, a model railroad club would be on the hook for about $250,000 PER MONTH in rent. Plus $3,000-4,000 per month for utilities. And that's before you build the layout . . .

JAC

I recall that the organization which started the Great American Train Show used to have an enormous layout in a new warehouse in Bensenville, IL. IIRC - the large layout was never fully developed, although alot of thought went into it and it worked fairly well, until the rent got too high.

I have seen two clubs located in old stores in smaller shopping centers. Often these smaller, early indoor centers cannot compete with the mega malls and big boxes, so the city takes over management and/or owenrship, and then tries to fill the spaces with a combination of commericial enterprises and city offices, NPOs, clubs, etc.

EBAY: Oneonta RR Restaurant

Model Railroader years ago had an article on a HUGE club layout built in a former bowling alley that the club had somehow acquired.

I will point out that a large number of old shopping centers sitting vacant are totally life-expired buildings, built on the cheap and not conducive to adaptation as a model railroad structure. In addition, such a building is typically sitting in commercially-zoned areas with high tax rates, and not even a religious house of worship could afford the resultant costs.

HOWEVER, if a civic organization or municipality is already sitting on an appropriate empty space, why not? I think the Penn State Model RR Club in State College, Pa. has been in the same weird college back room for 40 years or so now.........

lner4472@bcpl.net

I have long thought that something like Bob's idea would be a great thing, especially having grown up near sort of a place like that: Mac Lowry's "Railways of America" in Cuyahoga Falls, Oh., that was in business from the mid-60's to 1975, when his collection (including several cars fromh the 1938 Broadway Ltd. and a CB&Q 0-6-0) were sold to the then new Quaker Square festival market place in downtown Akron.

The front was a replica of, I believe, an Italian station, a very ornate enameled red brick structure. attatched to the rear was a large cinder block room housing a large O-scale layout. The layout did not really represent any particular place, but was a showcase for Mac's collection, with at least a four-track main, a huge, almost complete circle roundhouse, and off to the side, an animated display of circus wagons and related things. The walls were lined with paintings, photos and artifacts, and every hour the lights were turned out for a few minutes to showcase the lighted town and passenger trains. Then he would turn on a Mars light to dance over the layout. Very impressive to this small boy. The Broadway dining car was opened by Mrs. Lowry as a restaurant and for awhile he had an Ottaway Aerotrain running around the property for rides.

Sadly, after at least one change of ownership of Quaker Sqaure very little remains of Mac's non-model collection (the O-scale was auctioned off in the early '80's). A couple of the PRR coaches are built into the complex, and the 0-6-0 is still outside, along with the engine and one coach from the Areotrain, but most of it is gone. As for the original building on SR. 8 in the Falls, it's now a furniture store.

I still like Bob's idea, especially after having had a chance to take a really good look at the cover of the NRHS convention guide from a couple of weeks ago. It's an aerial photo of the B&O Mt. Clare shops in their heyday. What an impressive large layout that would be, maybe adding the railroad from say Relay to Bay View, with the harbor activity and the other major yards in Baltimore thrown in. Well, you did say BIG box store, right?

I think something along those lines would be great for a town whose railroad heritage had largely been wiped out. I was impressed at the work that went into the N-scale layout in the depot museum in Dennison, Oh., recreating a yard and shop complex now almost completely gone, in the limited space available. It certainly would be preferable to the collections of "stuff" that passes for museums in small towns, like New Oxford, Pa., where the last trip of the NRHS convention went last Sunday. I was really disappointed in the model RR in the baggage car next to the depot that represented nothing in particular, and had equipment from just about all eras and places on it. An opportunity lost to show something of what railroads in that area looked like in their prime.

pww57@hotmail.com

> > HOWEVER, if a civic organization or
> municipality is already sitting on an
> appropriate empty space, why not? I think
> the Penn State Model RR Club in State
> College, Pa. has been in the same weird
> college back room for 40 years or so
> now.........

Negatory on that, Sandy.

The club has had at least five layouts (plus a modular layout) in at least three different locations, all on campus but in widely disparate locations, over the last 48 (yes, forty-eight!) years. Its longest stint was 20 years 1955-1975 in the basement of the student union building. It has had to move for reasons just like those any tenant would face in the real-world real-estate market -- construction/reconstruction, shifting priorities, politics, etc. In other words, a cautionary note to any group looking at building anything permanent without holding the deed. Currently the club is in the East Halls residence area.

Dan Cupper
Harrisburg, Pa.
Alumnus of PSMRRC and member 68-72.

cupper@att.net

A good example of a fairly accurate layout as an interpretive tool is the HO scale display in the old baggage house at the Elicott City B&O Station Museum. The layout depicts the original main line of the B&O from Mt. Clare to Elicott City in the 1870s or so--selectively compressed of course, but accurate in all the essentials. It is integrated with a "son et lumiere" sound and light show which narrates the major features while highlighting them with sycronized spot lights. Gives the visitor an excellent sense of the relationship between Elicott City and Baltimore, and of the character of the early B&O.

eledbetter@rypn.org

Not an old store, but an old world's Fair building. The San Diego model railroad museum is in Balboa Park. They are modeling in several gauges real scenes of California railroading.

Well worth stopping in if you are in the area. And the upstairs displays in the San Diego historical
society, while not rail related, are well done.

On second thought, there is a single truck streetcar in their local history diplay.

ted_miles@nps.gov

> such a building is typically sitting in
> commercially-zoned areas with high tax
> rates, and not even a religious house of
> worship could afford the resultant costs.

Actually, a church with its tax exemption might
be the only organization that can quickly afford
the place! Could there be an educational, non-
profit, tax exempt model railroad club?
In the NorthEast, $3.00 per square foot per year
is considered cheap for "the renter pays all the
expenses" wharehouse space. The W B & A
Tractioneers in Baltimore rented about 1,875
square feet of one-entrance basement for $75.00
per month starting in 1965. The financial plan
was 15 members at $5.00 per month ($60.00 per
year) dues. About 1990, the new landlord started dreaming of getting market rates! He's still
dreaming, we couldn't pay even $250.00 per month.
Ownership is a safer way to go, but still
expensive.
An agency of the City of Philadelphia was looking
for a paying tennant for the old pier that Penn's
Landing Trolley was using as a carbarn. The
first 10 million dollars would get it. "It" was
10 year's use until all inprovements would revert
to the city! Talk about trying to peddle a gold
mine!



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