More photos at:

www.allegheny-vacation.com (a re-direct URL)

Online petition to save the viaduct at:

www.kinzuabridge.com

lner4472@bcpl.net

It doesn't appear that the following website has been updated since the collapse.

> www.kinzuabridge.com

Joshua


joshua@joshuakblay.com

Although it probably applies to the current situation, I think that “Save the Bridge” petition was for the initial restoration for the work that was being performed.

While it would be a noble cause to support efforts to rebuild the bridge now, is it really a viable project? If the restoration costs were set at 10 million dollars while the bridge was still complete, the costs to design and build replacement parts would be staggering. Obviously it impacts that area significantly, but based on the return on investment (public dollars only – not historic impact) - is it worth the effort?

While it would be unclear whether the refurbished bridge would have been able to survive a direct hit from a tornado, the facts remain that this bridge was left to deteriorate which didnÂ’t help matters. This is a perfect example of how we as a society are reactive instead of proactive. We usually wait until something it almost too far gone before we react and fix it rather than do preventative maintenance early on. I've done that around my house on things that need fixing, and IÂ’m sure you do too.

The deterioration of the bridge didn’t happen overnight and I’m sure that as this bridge was inspected over the years, the questions to the engineers would be related to “Can we get by another year without having to spend money?" That's probably the sentiment that existed for most of its life and it worked up until last year.

I’m not faulting the decisions or anyone in particular, but just pointing out that there are plenty of other structures and items throughout the country which this happens to all of the time. Wouldn’t it be better to look at this as somewhat of a lesson learned and work harder to promote and invest the money in stabilizing and securing other significant artifacts well before they are in dire need work? I would hope they can stabilize the remains of the bridge and still use it as an observation platform, but to restore it fully is in my opinion is not worth it. But hey, if someone wants to spend their own money on it – more power to them…

Again, I don’t want to debate the circumstances which took the bridge down as it could have been heavily damaged even if it was in top condition. Just wanted to see what you all think when left with a historic pile of rubble through neglect or act of God – what is the best use of the very limited financial funding which exists? Should we be focusing our energies to gain support in recreating it or should it be invested in protecting as best we can other fragile or deteriorating artifacts? There’s no way to put a price on the sentimentality towards the bridge, but could it be at the cost of losing other things?

I hope I made this clear enoughÂ…


klined@zero.net

I signed it anyway. Even if the bridge can't be rebuilt, it would still be nice to see what's left of it stay put rather than be reduced to scrap.

rjenkins@railfan.net

I took the opportunity to walk across the bridge last summer, before it was closed. I must say it was a beautiful bridge in a beautiful location. I was quite upset after I learned it had collapsed, and I must say I'm a bit depressed about it. Not sure why, but I am. I've only seen this bridge in person 1 time --- but somehow I feel attached to it. I was elated when I learned it was going to be restored. I looked forward to returning after its reopening. I know I'm not the only one that feels this way. Kinzua didn't receive the attention that the great pyramids or Eifel tower do, but it may be just as significant. It was an engineering marvel --- it's been talked about, photographed and visited countless times. There aren't 50 others like it in other locations. A reconstructed bridge may not even have the same feeling --- it would be a reproduction, but I sure wouldn't mind. The answers might become clearer after everyone gets over the shock. I know there isn't a point to this response, but I had to express a bit.

Here in Colorado we have a good example of a re-constructed bridge, namely the Devils Gate Viaduct on the Georgetown Loop. It is just as impressive today as the original one was it it's time.
Roger Mitchell
Master Mechanic
Fort Collins Municipal Railway

n0mcr@netzero.net

> This
> is a perfect example of how we as a society
> are reactive instead of proactive. We
> usually wait until something is almost too
> far gone before we react and fix it rather
> than do preventative maintenance early on.
> I've done that around my house on things
> that need fixing, and IÂ’m sure you do too.
> WouldnÂ’t it be better to
> look at this as somewhat of a lesson learned
> and work harder to promote and invest the
> money in stabilizing and securing other
> significant artifacts ?

Come on, PA State / Fed. Govt.

Make peace with the Kovalchic family, and
save the E.B.T. before we get more bad news.

To borrow the famous phrase: LETS ROLL !

> Come on, PA State / Fed. Govt.

> Make peace with the Kovalchick family, and
> save the E.B.T. before we get more bad news.

> To borrow the famous phrase: LETS ROLL !

Sorry, but that's like trying to make peace with..... well, any apt comparison I could make would get me the moderators' wrath for personal attacks, and rightly so.

As near as we can tell from the outside looking in, the current "leaders" of the clan dislike "the government" and its offers more than they would like the monies or offers being made to it. For whatever reason, they trust any governmental offers as much as a railroad preservationist would trust a scrapper with a flaming cutting torch, and until that changes with a new generation or revision of personal vision, we're stuck with the status quo.


lner4472@bcpl.net

Do YOU trust the government? I know I don't. Just think of all the botched up government programs over the years.

Tod Engine Foundation
rick@todengine.org

> Do YOU trust the government? I know I don't.
> Just think of all the botched up government
> programs over the years.

As a card-carrying Libertarian, no I don't. Indeed, despite the "good" parceled out by ISTEA and TEA-21, I believe both programs to be basically huge pork-barrel boondoggles, and I ain't writing one letter or e-mail of support.

However, the other side of the coin in this case is equally bleak. The EBT is suffering from decades of deferred or no maintenance. Corporately and fiscally, the company is all but out of assets to use to sustain operation. Any government contribution towards is preservation will require the surrender of more control of the operation and property than the owners are willing to submit to. Ditto any outside help, save for someone turning over a huge lottery winnings check with no restrictions. Unfortunately the only likely break in this now-hopeless stalemate that has gone on for 15 or more years is the deaths of some individuals or some cataclysmic personal philosophy change within the same.

I see it as comparable to the bizarre and macabre death watch of the town of Centralia, Pa., home to a massive mine fire, as the government waits for the deaths of the last of the "paranoid" folks who resisted the government property buyouts (convinced that the feds simply wanted a billion dollars' worth of coal under the town that, by a bizarre quirk in one specific law, belonged explicitly to the citizens of Centralia). The macabre "ghost town" of Centralia, with several detatched rowhouses propped uprig ht amidst a network of phantom streets, is the result.



lner4472@bcpl.net

Glass half full?
Glass half empty?

Nobody will argue that there aren't serious threats at EBT. Nothing Sandy wrote is factually inaccurate. But we've had decades of pessimism from the bleachers. It's time to acknowledge that there ARE a few bright spots, and to applaud those who are willing to look past the things they can't change and do something constructive like picking up a paint brush. Let's see, now...

#1 Bright spot: A few years ago EBT General Manager Stanley Hall hired Dave Brightbill, a younger-generation committed preservationist who -- when he was a volunteer at Railways to Yesterday -- oversaw the stellar restoration of York Railways trolley 163. Dave picked up his family from south-central Pa., moved to EBT Land, and has been full-time there ever since.

#2 Bright spot: The thaw in relations between EBT and the Friends of EBT has been long in coming, but it is real. The Friends had some difficult internal cleansing/neutralizing to do to get there, but the results are tangible. When the Friends bought expatriated cars 18 and 29 and brought them back from Colorado, EBT provided significant help in unloading and a secure storage area.

#3 Bright spot: An extension of #2 Bright spot: The Friends are conducting real hands-on restoration, stabilizing the fragile Orbisonia shops by doing foundation work, painting, glazing, tie work, etc., under the able hand of Lee Rainey. In this field/hobby, many talented people are capable of documenting history as Lee has done in the book he co-authored with Frank Kyper. Fewer are able to switch hats and put on a pair of work gloves. This is now the second season of such cooperation. In his pitch to prospective volunteers, Lee is careful to say, "Don't get carried away with dreams of rebuilding the main line to Mount Union or Robertsdale -- there's real work to be done in Orbisonia, and real decay to reverse." I believe that last season's total volunteer contribution was in excess of 1,000 hours.

#4 Bright spot: While EBT is using a single locomotive (2-8-2 #14) exclusively at the moment, it has a plan in place to retube #15 and get it back into service. That sounds like a view to the future to me. Granted, it's not a Robertsdale future or a Mount Union future, but it is an investment in continued operation next season.

These days, that counts for a lot.

Dan Cupper
Harrisburg, Pa.

cupper@att.net

Realistically, the only way EBT could justify capital investment to reopen the line to Mount Union or Robertsdale would be as a public sector subsidized economic development project much like CATS or SAM Shortline. Concentrating on the Rockhill Furnace / Orbisonia site and a less capital intensive, impulse cost and time commitment ride product to offer visitors is the only current feasable option.

It is gratifying to know of the progress made by the Friends and the EBT private management in working to reverse some of the deferred maintenence which threatened this core site.

The government we have isn't anything like a perfect one, but it is the only one we have and if we want to change it we must do it from within after getting in by playing by their rules of engagement. Unfortunately it does seem to be the one which enough people want to limit the possibility of substantive change in the forseeable future - neither a Democrat or Republican in the oval office are likely to push for a more culturally and historically aware public policy if the voters are so easily led into emotional reaction to created crises designed and perpetrated to get them into the polls by the party handlers and major campaign contributors.

One reason I no longer live in Pennsylvania is the high taxation and strong government presence in private business and life. Besides, the steel mills are closed and you can't see the air any more. The slag dump is now a shopping mall. If in the face of all this the Kovalchic family has decided to continue to own the ballpark and keep the team playing good for them and best wishes.

dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

> Nobody will argue that there aren't serious
> threats at EBT. Nothing Sandy wrote is
> factually inaccurate. But we've had decades
> of pessimism from the bleachers. It's time
> to acknowledge that there ARE a few bright
> spots, and to applaud those who are willing
> to look past the things they can't change
> and do something constructive like picking
> up a paint brush. Let's see, now...

*Okay, my apologies if some of my cynical pessimism went too far. When I was saying "outside help" in sustaining the operation was not forthcoming, I was not intending to slight the (considerable) efforts of the FEBT, the EBT, and others in the shadows. However, there are allegations about (unproven, of course, but heard from several sources) that Nick and/or Joe have rejected private offers that have amounted to a de facto purchase of the railroad. In addition, we may be seeing volunteer help and cooperation at/with the EBT, but for whatever reasons the railroad has seemingly never been the recipient of any major grant or donation from any private foundation. Perhaps they don't qualify; perhaps no one has asked for any such monies. But let's be realistic: IF the EBT suddenly came into quasi-public hands (say, a state park system with the FEBT as a support staff), wouldn't a lot more of us be willing to donate much more to the cause than under its current administration? I most certainly would--because I would then perceive the railroad's odds of long-term survival as being far greater. And I know quite a few other preservationists who have told me much the same thing--they're ready to set up "boot camp" and spend a weekend a month up there or a week of summer vacation on the EBT, as soon as they're convinced of a longer-term future then the current situation is able to project. (Would it be nice to see that 2,000 man-hours of volunteer help expand to 25,000 or more--with a track gang, car maintenance gang, roofing gang, and right-of-way stabilization?)

lner4472@bcpl.net

Please see my reply under a new thread:

EBT - People Make the Difference
ebtrr@spikesys.com