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National Register Pros/Cons PIC https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6418	Page 1 of 1

Author:	Boyd Owens [ Mon Jul 28, 2003 9:06 am ]
Post subject:	National Register Pros/Cons PIC
I am working on an article for this site about a former passenger car that was long ago made into a restaurant, and was asked about the pros and cons of having it listed on the National Register. The car is beautifully preserved, especially considering how long it has been a restaurant. It has been a restaurant much longer than it was in passenger service, so would be listed as a building rather than a railroad car. It is a fully functioning restaurant/supper club, and the owner intends to keep it open for a long time, which brings up maintenance/remodeling concerns as far as the National Register goes. Any recommendations and/or experiences would be greatly appreciated. Boyd bowens@rypn.org

Author:	Aarne H. Frobom [ Mon Jul 28, 2003 9:47 am ]
Post subject:	Re: National Register Pros/Cons
I don't believe there is any down-side to National Register listing. All it does is place the site, structure, or building on a list. The owner's rights in the property are not reduced, and the owner gains a possible marketing tool. "On the National Register of Historic Places" is a good advertising tag line that the competing Olive Garden or Denny's can't use. Depending on the facts of this car, I think you could make a case that the car is historically significant at the state level as representative of a once-widespread but now largely extinct class of restaurant buildings made from former streetcars, interurbans, and railroad cars. Maybe even the national level, as the number of survivors must now be very small. That is, if this conversion dates back to the "diner" days, say, the 1930's, and not to modern times. Aarne Frobom The Steam Railroading Institute P. O. Box 665 Owosso, MI 48867-0665

Author:	Ted Miles [ Mon Jul 28, 2003 11:43 am ]
Post subject:	Re: National Register Pros/Cons
>Boyd, I work with National register items every day. There are two major items to consider in any nomination. The first is easy, is it 50 years old? After that is significance, does it represent something significant in American history? Did the President sit in the seats? With a railcar, the fact that is is no longer on a rail site, probably missing its underbody equipment, perhaps even its trucks, play against a technology nomination. But you can always try. The first thing to do is talk to the staff at your State Historic Preservation Office, which is listed on the Internet. maybe it can be listed on a State register. ted_miles@nps.gov

Author:	Boyd Owens [ Mon Jul 28, 2003 2:31 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: National Register Pros/Cons PIC
A little additional info about the car/restaurant: Wooden Sleeper car Built 1902 (one of four) for MStP&SStM (SOO Line) Railroad Converted to restaurant in late 20s/early 30's (still researching exact date) On concrete building foundation Boyd bowens@rypn.org

Author:	dave [ Mon Jul 28, 2003 2:38 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: National Register Pros/Cons
The bad news is that it is unlikely you can place it on a register as a piece of railroad equipment - the good news is that most preservation organizations who can assist with an application are much more experienced in nominating buildings anyhow. Trade off is national or state register VS ability to make alterations / repairs in the future without significant oversight. Used to be a lot of potential tax credits and grants were available for preserving historic structures - some tax credits remain but not much money out there any more. dave irondave@bellsouth.net

Author:	Bob Yarger [ Mon Jul 28, 2003 2:55 pm ]
Post subject:	How many trolley/RR car diners still in use?
Just curious how many railcars or trolleys like this might still be in use as eateries? I'm talking about those converted to roadside diners decades ago, not the usual RR theme restaurants of today that incorporate passenger cars. I doubt there are very many left. ryarger@rypn.org

Author:	Rob Davis [ Mon Jul 28, 2003 3:47 pm ]
Post subject:	RoadAge list
RoadAge http://www.roadage.com/ publishing puts out a nice little spiral-bo8und book of all the diners in the US. Randy Garbin updates it each year. He tries to include builders information for every one. There are a quite a few that list the origin as a railroad or trolley car. Rob http://www.roadage.com/ rdavis@rypn.org

Author:	Bruce Abel [ Mon Jul 28, 2003 8:12 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: How many trolley/RR car diners still in use?
In Christchurch, New Zealand, there is an operating trolley system that features a dinner excursion whereby one can get a tour of the city while eating dinner aboard the trolley. I saw it 3 years ago in Christchurch and, to the best of my knowledge, it is still operating. One can get more info on their Web site: www.tram.co.nz/. Bruce Abel > Just curious how many railcars or trolleys > like this might still be in use as eateries? > I'm talking about those converted to > roadside diners decades ago, not the usual > RR theme restaurants of today that > incorporate passenger cars. I doubt there > are very many left. babel@optonline.net

Author:	Brian Norden [ Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:47 pm ]
Post subject:	How about one at a museum??
> Just curious how many railcars or trolleys > like this might still be in use as eateries? > I'm talking about those converted to > roadside diners decades ago, not the usual > RR theme restaurants of today that > incorporate passenger cars. I doubt there > are very many left. Well, at Orange Empire we have a relocated one; but it is not in service. This is a former Santa Fe coach from 1907 that became a roadside eatery in the early 1930s near March Air Field. It was then relocated two more times as the highway changed. Then when the road became a freeway it was moved again. The state department of transportation moved it into a storage yard and offered it to Orange Empire for preservation. There were just so many strings and reporting requirements that we initially passed on it. Then a couple of years later they offered it again with no strings and funding for a foundation. We accepted it with a tight vote of our board. Some saw it as a interpretive use about the reuse of railroad equipment; others saw it as an incomplete rail car. Even though changed to some extent, it is one of the very few (if there are any others) examples of a 1907 wooden vestibuled Santa Fe coach. 1/3 of one side is opened into the add-on kitchen and a previous owner added an imitation of a UP streamliner nose to the other end. It has been repainted into a former roadside-diner paint scheme and is getting other care. Brian Norden bnorden49@earthlink.net

Author:	Boyd Owens [ Tue Jul 29, 2003 7:30 am ]
Post subject:	Re: National Register Pros/Cons PIC
Minor correction (probably not terribly important, just wanted to correct my error)- Foundation under car is fieldstone. Boyd bowens@rypn.org

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