On the website of the New York Ontario & Western Historical Society's museum in Roscoe, New York (http://www.nyow.org/museum.html), there is a photo (see below) of a NYO&W caboose sitting next to Erie-Lackawanna electric MU car #3451. The NYO&WHS has plans to rebuild this car into some sort of "trout car," and it is portrayed as such. However, oddly enough, below the photo is a legend that says "Photo manipulation by Bill Schneider". Does this mean that 3451 was digitally inserted? It looks like it may have been, but if so Bill did a good job of scaling and positioning the car. Does anyone know for sure what the actual location and condition of this car is?

Frank Hicks

Preserved North American Electric Railway Cars

fullparallel@wideopenwest.com

> On the website of the New York Ontario &
> Western Historical Society's museum in
> Roscoe, New York
> (http://www.nyow.org/museum.html), there is
> a photo (see below) of a NYO&W caboose
> sitting next to Erie-Lackawanna electric MU
> car #3451. The NYO&WHS has plans to
> rebuild this car into some sort of
> "trout car," and it is portrayed
> as such. However, oddly enough, below the
> photo is a legend that says "Photo
> manipulation by Bill Schneider". Does
> this mean that 3451 was digitally inserted?
> It looks like it may have been, but if so
> Bill did a good job of scaling and
> positioning the car. Does anyone know for
> sure what the actual location and condition
> of this car is?

> Frank Hicks

Frank: Someone recently told me that the car HAD been moved to the NYO&W Museum site in Roscoe (after intially being refused there.) Perhaps the car is not in this particular position though. Incidentally, the NYO&W caboose is actually a steel Erie cupola caboose and not actual NYO&W.

Les Beckman (Hoosier Valley Railroad Museum/North Judson, IN)

midlandblb@cs.com

Yes, this is one of the more controversial "preservation" ideas. The replication of a "trout car" is a neat idea, but controversy is that the car to be used is one the Lackawanna's electric MU club cars. The common complaint is that it would have been nice to see a more mundane car used for the conversion. It was sent to Roscoe from the United Railroad Historical Society of NJ. Two other DL&W MU club cars are in the URHS collection and would presumably be part of the NJ state museum.

The club cars were built as non-powered cars by Barney & Smith in 1912 and were rebuilt for the 1930 electrification.

The irony is that with all the Lackawanna MU's out there on tourist railroads, the coolest ones of all, the club cars, have not been dealt a kind hand in post-service preservation. The URHS cars are in storage, and recent pictures don't show them to be fairing well.

Of course, Steamtown has done some "backdating" on thier DL&W cars to pre-electrification numbers. Sure would be nice to see a DL&W club car in Scranton, wouldn't it? Hint... hint...

And, yes, that is an Erie caboose at Roscoe. The surviving O&W hacks are scattered between New England and Santa Monica, but none are preserved in an O&W town, ironically.

Of course, everything in life is a trade-off, and as long

rdavis@rypn.org

> The irony is that with all the Lackawanna
> MU's out there on tourist railroads, the
> coolest ones of all, the club cars, have not
> been dealt a kind hand in post-service
> preservation.

I'm not sure that any of the preserved Lack MU cars have been treated that great. Many are well taken care of, but those are the cars that were rebuilt into coaches - either authentic restorations like the Steamtown cars or complete rebuildings like the Hobo Railroad cars. There are only a few cars that are really preserved as electrics, and most of these could use some work. The only motor-trailer sets preserved together I can think of are at URHS and (below) Steamtown.

Frank Hicks

Preserved North American Electric Railway Cars

F-Hicks@wiu.edu

BTW - if you haven't visited Franks electric car list, it is well worth it. It is a very valuable tool and a tremendous effort!

Rob

http://www.bera.org/pnaerc.html
rdavis@rypn.org

Frank,

Not much equipment that served NJ has been well cared for. It hasn't been for a lack of trying, but there is a tremendous volume of work and tremendous little funding. Our little state, with so much rail history, is not as well represented in the preservation era as our neighbors like PA.

Since there isn't a really good home for a restored set of DL&W MU's in-state, it doesn't surprise me that very few have been presevered as electrics. Most, as you say, have been stripped of their MU equipment. Since many were steam coaches prior to electrification, this has resulted in some pretty neat cars.

The Steamtown pair was being held for preservation intact. At one time, one of the Rangers had found out that S'town had in its posession one of the few MU's the DL&W painted silver. I am not sure if one of them is in the set put aside for interpretation as electrics.

The URHS cars also stand a good chance of interpretation as electrics if the NJ museum project gets off the ground. Certainly, the time in storage is taking its toll, but the cars are still around, are in-state and have potential... and the URHS has not given up despite the rocky road of NJ politics. Givin Edison's involvement with the electrics, it is hoped these babies will survive for interpretation in NJ.

I believe unmodifed DL&W MU's also exisit in Croton, NY (languishing), at the Rochester & Genesee Valley Museum and perhaps a couple of locations in the mid-west.

They were the last steam-era passenger fleet retired from revenue service, and they certainly have lead varied post-retirement lives!

Rob

> I'm not sure that any of the preserved Lack
> MU cars have been treated that great. Many
> are well taken care of, but those are the
> cars that were rebuilt into coaches - either
> authentic restorations like the Steamtown
> cars or complete rebuildings like the Hobo
> Railroad cars. There are only a few cars
> that are really preserved as electrics, and
> most of these could use some work. The only
> motor-trailer sets preserved together I can
> think of are at URHS and (below) Steamtown.

> Frank Hicks


rdavis@rypn.org

Fake trout cars must be a growing trend.

Recently a 1937 Canadian National 64-seat streamlined coach (one of the riveted "Canadian Flyer" variety) was transmogrified into an evocation of the 1920-era Michigan Dept. of Conservation fish-hatchery car "Wolverine." The real "Wolverine" was a 1900-era vestibuled wooden sleeper converted for hauling fish in milk cans and hatchery workers in surviving sections and an added kitchen.

The lightweight car, which had been relatively complete, had its seats removed, and reproduction wooden sections and kitchen rooms added in in half the car. (The original car's wooden interior survives in part, but wasn't re-used.) A baggage door with electrified ADA-approved sliding door was cut into the curved-side car. The other half had museum exhibits installed covering the history of fish hatcheries in Michigan and various ecological subjects.

This conversion was done at the MSU Museum in East Lansing, and the car has since been installed at the site of a former state fish hatchery in Oden, Michigan (about a mile from where two ex-GTW heavyweights were sitting derelict but unknown to the fishmongers). The whole thing was paid for by the proceeds of a lawsuit by an environmental group against a power utility over the fish killed by the utility's pumped storage hydro plant at Ludington.

Now I'm wondering who I can sue to get money to pay for converting something into a 64-seat coach, and waiting for someone to convert a 40-foot box car into a Lionel acquarium car . . .

- Aarne Frobom

I was involved with a short line that acquired several of the DL&W motor cars for tourist service, and I can tell you why most of them have had the electrics removed. The FRA inspector told us that as long as there were motors and controls, the cars had to be kept up and inspected as locomotives, not coaches! Never mind that there wasn't an inch of catenary within several hundred miles - they were still locomotives. IIRC, we were allowed some time to make the changes, but the traction motors had to be removed, and the brake systems modified in order for them to be eligible to be treated as ordinary passenger cars.

In addition, of course, there was the issue of hauling around the extra weight of the traction motors, and the need to keep the extra bearing and gears lubed.

Dick

> Frank,

> Not much equipment that served NJ has been
> well cared for. It hasn't been for a lack of
> trying, but there is a tremendous volume of
> work and tremendous little funding. Our
> little state, with so much rail history, is
> not as well represented in the preservation
> era as our neighbors like PA.

> Since there isn't a really good home for a
> restored set of DL&W MU's in-state, it
> doesn't surprise me that very few have been
> presevered as electrics. Most, as you say,
> have been stripped of their MU equipment.
> Since many were steam coaches prior to
> electrification, this has resulted in some
> pretty neat cars.

> The Steamtown pair was being held for
> preservation intact. At one time, one of the
> Rangers had found out that S'town had in its
> posession one of the few MU's the DL&W
> painted silver. I am not sure if one of them
> is in the set put aside for interpretation
> as electrics.

> The URHS cars also stand a good chance of
> interpretation as electrics if the NJ museum
> project gets off the ground. Certainly, the
> time in storage is taking its toll, but the
> cars are still around, are in-state and have
> potential... and the URHS has not given up
> despite the rocky road of NJ politics. Givin
> Edison's involvement with the electrics, it
> is hoped these babies will survive for
> interpretation in NJ.

> I believe unmodifed DL&W MU's also
> exisit in Croton, NY (languishing), at the
> Rochester & Genesee Valley Museum and
> perhaps a couple of locations in the
> mid-west.

> They were the last steam-era passenger fleet
> retired from revenue service, and they
> certainly have lead varied post-retirement
> lives!

> Rob


rwilkes99@yahoo.com

Rob, thanks for the kind words about the website! These days, most of my time researching "new leads" actually involves MU cars because so many of them are preserved as workhorses rather than historic cars, hence information on them is hard to come by.

> The Steamtown pair was being held for
> preservation intact. At one time, one of the
> Rangers had found out that S'town had in its
> posession one of the few MU's the DL&W
> painted silver. I am not sure if one of them
> is in the set put aside for interpretation
> as electrics.

Neat! I hadn't heard that. There's some info on the silver-painted MU cars at http://gelwood.railfan.net/el/mu/silver.html, but no car numbers. I wonder whether a list of cars so painted exists, or whether you'd be able to tell by sanding down the cars themselves?

> I believe unmodifed DL&W MU's also
> exisit in Croton, NY (languishing), at the
> Rochester & Genesee Valley Museum and
> perhaps a couple of locations in the
> mid-west.

I'd heard of the pair at Croton, but I've never been able to figure out the car numbers nor who owns them. If anyone lives in the area, and might be able to make a side trip to see them, please contact me! I've seen the car at R&GVRRM; it's in pretty good shape, although it could use some paint. Somewhere I read that R&GVRRM was hoping eventually to hook it up to a generator and try to run it, which would really be neat.

Of course, no matter how few Lack MU cars are preserved intact or in sets, they're still better off than some of their counterparts. There aren't any of the old New Haven heavyweight MU's still around - a few washboards are all that is left - and I only know of three NYC MU cars.

Frank Hicks

Preserved North American Electric Railway Cars
F-Hicks@wiu.edu

Dick,

You are right, of course. I meant to imply that some examples should be held (and have been) for preservation intact, but clearly the removal of electrical gear for tourist train service is a legit re-use of the cars.

Rob

> I was involved with a short line that
> acquired several of the DL&W motor cars
> for tourist service, and I can tell you why
> most of them have had the electrics removed.
> The FRA inspector told us that as long as
> there were motors and controls, the cars had
> to be kept up and inspected as locomotives,
> not coaches! Never mind that there wasn't an
> inch of catenary within several hundred
> miles - they were still locomotives. IIRC,
> we were allowed some time to make the
> changes, but the traction motors had to be
> removed, and the brake systems modified in
> order for them to be eligible to be treated
> as ordinary passenger cars.

> In addition, of course, there was the issue
> of hauling around the extra weight of the
> traction motors, and the need to keep the
> extra bearing and gears lubed.

> Dick


rdavis@rypn.org

Hello

I'm sure some of the traction (or M&H guys for that matter) can elaborate, but the several (5?) MU's at the Middletown and Hummelstown RR near Harrisburg are relatively intact and functional. While they were trailers only, the lights (via generator), horns and air control stands are all in regular use as head end cars on most of the return trips they make.

Dave Crosby

bing@epix.net

Frank,

Thanks for being kind to our MU at the R&GVRR Museum. The 2628 is complete inside and out and will be kept that way. And yes, we have always hoped that someday we might be able to plug it in on its shop tap and make it move under its own power even if it was just a few feet. Our understanding is that they were moved on a shop tap using just the first two, I think, notches on the controller. But that is many years off.

As for paint, Steamtown was recently kind enough to share their green paint info with me and hopefully our MU will get at least a little new paint soon. If nothing else, I hope to repaint the head end which was repainted many years back with the wrong color.

Our biggest challenge with our MU now will be some major required roof repair on the car as what appears to be aluminum roof has corroded and pulled away from its rivets on one side. With dissimilar metals, this is almost to be expected. Some of the seams in this very thin roof have also started to leak a little. We continue to stave them off, but a whole roof rebuild appears the only way to prevent them for the long term.

Has anyone reworked a roof on an MU car? Since our restoration facility is not quite ready to undertake the MU car's roof just yet, we are looking into the acquisition of a very large, high quality rubberized "toaster cover" tarp to help keep Mother Nature out of the car after our season ends this year.

Until later,
Chris



Rochester & Genesee Valley RR Museum
crhauf@frontiernet.net

> And, yes, that is an Erie caboose at Roscoe.
> The surviving O&W hacks are scattered
> between New England and Santa Monica, but
> none are preserved in an O&W town,
> ironically.

Rob:

Didn't realize that there were ANY NYO&W cabooses still in existance. Happen to have a list of where they are located?

Les Beckman (Hoosier Valley Railroad Museum/North Judson, Indiana)

midlandblb@cs.com

To address the original question about the "Photo manipulation by Bill Schneider", it appears the window configuration of the car has been altered and the lettering above the windows added using Photoshop or some other digital imaging program, probably to simulate what the car will look at when it's actually "restored". I don't think the whole car has been inserted in the photo. I manipulate/retouch photos every day with Photoshop as part of my job.

davew833@yahoo.com

Les,

Bobber #8206 is on the Ulster & Delaware in NY
#8304 is in Santa Monica, CA
#8301 is in Essex, CT
The frame of #8360 is under LIRR C-80
May be more, not sure...

There are also O&W caboose trucks scattered about.

Rob

rdavis@rypn.org