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| Rob-please... https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6844 |
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| Author: | Superheater [ Mon Sep 08, 2003 12:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Rob-please... |
Rob, given that you were involved in something of a boondoggle in another forum within the last few weeks, I'm surprised and disappointed you would slip a campaign website hyperlink into a brief here. I'll keep this civil and avoid the vitriol that you received elsewhere, but please- a good many of us come here in part to escape the incessant drumbeat of politics. While I have no objection to linking to a news report detailing the actions of some politician in regard to a preservation project, I do object to linking to a campaign website. We are going to hear EVERY candidate's vainglorious and narcissistic rantings with increasing vigor and frequency for the next 14 months, please allow some sanctuary here. "Every election is an auction in advance of stolen goods". -H.L. Mencken Superheater@rrmail.com |
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| Author: | Rob Davis [ Mon Sep 08, 2003 2:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rob-please... |
Please feel free to e-mail me directly and not clog up the Interchange. Rob rdavis@rypn.org |
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| Author: | Bob Yarger [ Mon Sep 08, 2003 3:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Howard Dean |
Howard Dean (a former New Yorker) was truly the main man when it came to preserving and utilizing railroad infrastructure in Vermont, as well as preserving the state's bucolic character and historic downtowns. As President, he would be a champion of preservation programs, including TEA-21. Say what you will about keeping politics off this board, they have a vital role in what happens in our field and are worth discussing. Look at most anything the National Trust for Historic Preservation puts out - plenty of politics there.. If we truly believe in what we're doing, we should be backing candidates that share similar feelings. Otherwise, we're just big kids playing train. ryarger@rypn.org |
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| Author: | John Craft [ Mon Sep 08, 2003 4:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rob-please... |
> We are going to hear EVERY candidate's > vainglorious and narcissistic rantings with > increasing vigor and frequency for the next > 14 months, please allow some sanctuary here. Well, I guess one man's "vainglorious and narcissistic rantings" is another man's "democracy." Oh, and the name of this forum is "Interchange," not "Sanctuary." And to echo Bob Y.'s comment, if we are too pure or too exalted to engage in the real world (which, for better or worse, includes politics and politicians), then the "big kids playing trains" line applies. JAC |
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| Author: | GOPFAN [ Mon Sep 08, 2003 4:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Howard Dean |
I happen to agree with Superheater. I don't like sneak attacks. That link is a political popup. It reminds me why the Dems have the animal they do as party symbol. However if we are going to go down this road, President Bush has had a couple of very major initiatives for preservation. |
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| Author: | David M. Wilkins [ Mon Sep 08, 2003 5:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Public Policy -vs- Politics |
Believe it or not, there is a difference between the two. Discussing issues such as governmental funding of preservation projects, the future of Amtrak, and other related issues fall within the realm of public policy. Politics in general traditionally refers to the mudslinging and general "dirty" environment that we tend to associate with politics today. Yes, politicians do deal in issues of public policy, but as museums and historical organizations, there is a difference between the two that needs to be recognized. The line between politics and public policy is often a very thin one to walk, but we must try to walk it. After all, besides the various 501c3 issues involved when museums engage in politics, outright support of one party or candidate has the risk of turning roughly 1/2 of the population (read potential donors, members, volunteers) off to your museum or organization's message. As a public institution engaged in the preservation and interpretation of historical objects, engaging in politics could potentially be dangerous to the long-term survival of your museum. I live in one of the "red states" which is facing a contentious governor's race this year. One party has dominated state politics for over 30 years, and people want change in some form or another as expressed by the two major party candidates. Also recently, a university basketball coach in this state started campaigning for one of the candidates. He faced a lot of criticism for the same reasons. As a public figure, he risked damaging the university's image among those who don't support his candidate. It may end up hurting the university if the supported candidate looses. Either way, the coach should have stayed in the forum of public policy (wanting a new, state-owned basketball arena) and not into supporting a particular candidate. The same analogy applies here. Sorry, but I am possibly less likely to agree with people like Bob and Rob if they openly support politics on the RYPN interchange. Sorry, it is just human nature. Simply put, there is a difference between discussing issues of public policy (TEA-21, Rails to trails, Amtrak) and politics (Howard Dean, George W. Bush, Republicans, Democrats). Just because the railroad industry had a rich history of being involved in politics does not mean that railway preservation should. If you want to advocate a particular political persuasion in your private time, go ahead. If you blatantly advocate a candidate on this board, you risk alienating those who might not agree with you. For railway museums to leave the realm of public policy and face possible alienation in the arena of public policy could be very damaging to the movement as a whole. If choose to take this route may be viewed not as “boys playing with trains,” but politicians playing with trains. david.wilkins@bardstown.com |
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| Author: | Gerald W. Kopiasz [ Mon Sep 08, 2003 5:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Howard Dean |
It's impossible to separate politics and our industry as they are most certain tied to each other. On the other hand I don't want to have to read endorsements of various politicians. I could link up to my candidates site on all posts, but I won't cause I'm here to deal with more appropriate topics. I'm all about talking politics as it applies to our realm, if you want to take politics further I'd be happy to debate via email or phone. God Bless, Gerald W. Kopiasz > I happen to agree with Superheater. I don't > like sneak attacks. That link is a political > popup. > It reminds me why the Dems have the animal > they do as party symbol. > However if we are going to go down this > road, President Bush has had a couple of > very major initiatives for preservation. Heartland Railroad Historical Society hrrhs@aol.com |
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| Author: | Superheater [ Mon Sep 08, 2003 5:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Politics & Playing with trains |
> Well, I guess one man's "vainglorious > and narcissistic rantings" is another > man's "democracy." You need to work in government, see how it really works before chiding others about "democracy". I know everything is political on the left-but most people don't care anymore-they understand they didn't vote for open borders, overseas jobs, gay marriage, drtivers licenses to illegal aliens, activist judges or the surrender of US sovereinty to the UN. In any case, I wouldn't care if the link said "X campaign" instead of X. Duplicity makes me far less likely to vote for a candidate. > Oh, and the name of this forum is > "Interchange," not > "Sanctuary." Actually John, the link was in "briefs". > And to echo Bob Y.'s comment, if we are too > pure or too exalted to engage in the real > world (which, for better or worse, includes > politics and politicians), then the > "big kids playing trains" line > applies. First of all if this endeavor is solely dependent on political patronage, we have nothing to offer. That having been said-Again, I said I have no objection to discussing credible accounts of what anybody has done in this field, however campaign media is inherently biased and should be clearly labeled for what it is. Until we learn to make viable, self-supporting business models, we are nothing but pawns hoping for a few crumbs from the public treasury-when a grant will give the politician in charge at the moment a little face time. Government money comes with a price-quite frankly, there isn't enough political sophistication or connections in this community to make it work, the way it does for the "arts" By the way, Hume was once working on 501c3 status-despite numerous examples to the contrary- NPO's are supposed to be apolitical. superheater@rrmail.com |
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| Author: | Wesley Paulson [ Mon Sep 08, 2003 6:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | 501(c)(3) and Politics |
While I cannot recall chapter and verse, I know that as a 501(c)(3), a non-profit cannot be actively involved in politics (general elections and endorsing candidates). As non-profits we can advocate for legislation, etc. as it may impact our operations, but that too is a fine line. Effective advocacy is something we can learn from our colleagues in the arts. And that is the subject for another day. Wesley |
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| Author: | Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Mon Sep 08, 2003 6:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Hear, hear!!! Thank you!! |
"There are three things that should never be discussed among friends--religion, politics, and The Great Pumpkin." -- Linus I have no problem discussing politics, as anyone who knows me well can testify (as a registered Libertarian, I can harass BOTH sides of the traditional spectrum!). But I don't want to do it here. The political/policy side of such issues as Steamtown, the Altoona projects, the C&TS/EBT jeopardy, etc. are more than ugly and messy enough for me to wallow into. I don't want brazen politics here on RyPN. LNER4472-NOSPAM-@bcpl.net |
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| Author: | T.J. Gaffney [ Mon Sep 08, 2003 8:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 501(c)(3) and Politics: Thank You |
Thanks for mentioning that Wesley; I was thinking much along the same line. I have a very personal example of this: I was asked very soon after I was employed by the museum to run for the local city council. It was a reasonable idea, and I had real beliefs in running for the good of the position, not FOR a paticular idea or position. Sad thing was, everyone who asked me to run wanted to put me into a "camp"; and when you work for a non-profit, that's dangerous. I quickly decided against it, and have never been ashamed for doing so. The way I see it, I am working in a position that I hope will benefit tomorrow by the preservation of yesterday AND today, and thats where I should stand. In fact, my director has gone so far as to turn down membership in the local service clubs (Quota, Lions, Kiwanis, Rotary), as he feels that spending time with one might suggest to our visiting public and members (as well as the other clubs) that we only support that group to the detrimate of others. His predecessor (25 years ago now) was "let go" by our Board of Trustees for just that type of issue, so I understand how he feels. Long and the short: if you work for a non-profit, stay out of politics, especially if its local--its the quickest way to bring a world of hurt on both you and your organization. TJG > While I cannot recall chapter and verse, I > know that as a 501(c)(3), a non-profit > cannot be actively involved in politics > (general elections and endorsing > candidates). As non-profits we can advocate > for legislation, etc. as it may impact our > operations, but that too is a fine line. > Effective advocacy is something we can learn > from our colleagues in the arts. And that is > the subject for another day. > Wesley Port Huron Museum tjgaffney@phmuseum.org |
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| Author: | Rob Davis [ Mon Sep 08, 2003 10:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | End of Subject |
Hi friends, I ask again that if you take issue, please contact us directly and not clutter the Interchange. For the record, the link in question was to Dean's official biography. It was not meant to offend, promote or do anything other than be a link you could read if you wanted to. I am sorry that there are so many folks with the need to lambaste me publicly for this. But since the need was there, congratulations. You have suceeded. I am lambasted. I am embrassed. I am shamed. I am questioning why I give up time with my baby to volunteer doing this when I am one link away from an attack. RyPN is a labor of love. For the Brief in question, that labor took five hours of my Sunday night that I would rather have spent with my son or asleep, but I feel a certain sense of commitment to our community and out readers to get things out there whenever I can. So, a decision that I made at 11:45PM has turned into this public mess. That may not mean much to you, but I have to get up at 5:30 to drive 3 hours -yes three hours - to my real job every morning. If you ever wonder why our community can't get off its tail and organize, remember this thread and look how easily it is to cast stones and shred your bretheren. With a modicum of respect, this could have been a polite e-mail thread. Meanwhile, trestles burn, steam operations stop, ROW's get torn up, but the topic worth everyone's time is one simple link. I pulled the link so that this will not continue. In the future, I ask that if you every take issue with anything I write, please drop an e-mail with your concerns. Thanks, Rob rdavis@rypn.org |
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| Author: | ge13031 [ Mon Sep 08, 2003 10:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: End of Subject ...three cheers ... |
... for Rob and the time he spends on this site, thanks For the folks that don't want to get involved in politics here is a list of politicians your operation (or planned operation) can avoid: County Commissioners Township Trustees Public Utilities Commissions Chambers of Commerce Mayors City Councils Highway Departments State Representatives Port Authorities State Senators County Engineers City Engineers and I am sure you can add more ... unless you plan to live in a vacuum in a totally isolated area you can save a lot of surprises if you do like any other "business" in your area and make your plans and needs known to the (horrors) political entity(ies) directly involved with the life and success of your operation. Don't need to fly flags or post banners, let them know you are contributing something to the community ...and possibly the size of the block of votes that agree with your position. lamontdc@adelphia.net |
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| Author: | T.J. Gaffney [ Tue Sep 09, 2003 12:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: End of Subject |
Rob and the RYPN community- I have since removed my post. It was in no way meant to offend, but even though that is the case it does not change the fact that I obviously did. NO ONE here should question Rob's dedication to this site and to the rail preservation community as a whole. As a father raising a young family himself, the last thing I wish to do is to take another man away from raising his. Rob, I apologize if my comments about my own personal beliefs of not running for office on a local level were insulting. They are exactly that; my own personal beliefs. I respect yours, and hope that you can forgive me if you feel that was not the case. TJG > Hi friends, > I ask again that if you take issue, please > contact us directly and not clutter the > Interchange. > For the record, the link in question was to > Dean's official biography. It was not meant > to offend, promote or do anything other than > be a link you could read if you wanted to. > I am sorry that there are so many folks with > the need to lambaste me publicly for this. > But since the need was there, > congratulations. You have suceeded. I am > lambasted. I am embrassed. I am shamed. I am > questioning why I give up time with my baby > to volunteer doing this when I am one link > away from an attack. > RyPN is a labor of love. For the Brief in > question, that labor took five hours of my > Sunday night that I would rather have spent > with my son or asleep, but I feel a certain > sense of commitment to our community and out > readers to get things out there whenever I > can. > So, a decision that I made at 11:45PM has > turned into this public mess. That may not > mean much to you, but I have to get up at > 5:30 to drive 3 hours -yes three hours - to > my real job every morning. > If you ever wonder why our community can't > get off its tail and organize, remember this > thread and look how easily it is to cast > stones and shred your bretheren. With a > modicum of respect, this could have been a > polite e-mail thread. > Meanwhile, trestles burn, steam operations > stop, ROW's get torn up, but the topic worth > everyone's time is one simple link. > I pulled the link so that this will not > continue. In the future, I ask that if you > every take issue with anything I write, > please drop an e-mail with your concerns. > Thanks, > Rob tjgaffney@phmuseum.org |
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