Folks,

I do not want to be construed as "kicking a man while he's down", but I feel that the second washout of the W&W in four years calls some serious questions to be asked, not just of the W&W but of some other similar operations.

To wit, there are several operations out there in jeopardy from natural disasters of this nature or of other kinds--forest fires, rockfalls, etc. We've been through it before, and if current weather and population trends continue, it's likely to get worse. Witness a couple "sitting ducks":
*The Baltimore Streetcar Museum, hard hit by floods twice in its history (1979 and 1985), and still in a flood plain despite some efforts to relocate.
*Wilmington & Western--need I say more?
*Roanoke Transportation Museum, hard hit in 1985.
*Cuyahoga Valley Scenic--hit by flooding this year...
*Magee Transportation Museum, Bloomsburg, Pa.--wiped out in 1972 by Tropical Storm Agnes, never to return.
*The Cass-Durbin line, still being repaired halfheartedly after 1980s destruction.

The current trend is that, because of extensive watershed development and paving, these floods are going to get worse. The old "100-year flood" levels are now getting mentally re-evaluated to "20-year floods" by many officials. In the case of the W&W, I can personally testify as to the extensive development--compare the areas around each end of the line in 1970 and today; today both ends are in the middle of strip malls and heavy commercial development. And I'm not even counting the housing developments in the valley.

People can grit their teeth and "give 'til it hurts" in the case of a really spectacular once-in-a-lifetime calamity, such as the roof of the B&O Museum roundhouse collapsing. But the goodwill and help that may be forthcoming the first time around will be smaller the second time, and smaller still the third time, and........ There is the very likelihood of such properties being basically uninsurable in the future through no fault of their own, and soon an operation like the W&W is going to be faced with an inevitable decision whether to proceed or simply surrender. Unless some government agency is willing to make an operation like the W&W a linear park and pay for maintaining it at all costs as a public works project, it may simply become unfeasible as a preservation project. Personally, I could see some big-ticket donors being reluctant to donate to the rebuilding of the W&W unless/until they saw flood-control projects being instituted in the Red Clay Valley.

As if we don't have enough to worry about from wear and tear on equipment and rolling stock....... is "global warming" and flooding a concern for YOUR operation? Is the matter being considered/addressed?

LNER4472-NOSPAM-@bcpl.net

> As if we don't have enough to worry about
> from wear and tear on equipment and rolling
> stock....... is "global warming"
> and flooding a concern for YOUR operation?
> Is the matter being considered/addressed?

I always wondered what would happen to all those beautiful logging engines if Mt. Ranier decided to pull a Mt. St. Helens.

Article below, in addition to showing a photo of what remains of the W&W's wooddale trestle, highlights precisely what my post was describing.

Wilm. News Journal on flooding
LNER4472-NOSPAM-@bcpl.net

We are in the midst of Phase I of a three-stage plan to relocate our facilities to higher ground within Northwest Branch Park. Phase I includes a new display barn that could house a majority of the collection if needed. Sorry, no web links or photos available at this time.

Alexander;

So, what *exactly* is your point? Should the B&O roundhouse get rebuilt, because, heck, it might not survive the next big snowfall. After all, builders build buildings to survive what is expected; what if something really unexpected comes along again?

Are you suggesting that all of the preserved railway equipment should be moved from the west coast of North America to protect it? Where would you move it to?

Or, should we all just give up, and go watch baseball on TV, with the knowledge that anything we do is liable to come to grief?

John Stewart
Ottawa, Canada.

> Article below, in addition to showing a
> photo of what remains of the W&W's
> wooddale trestle, highlights precisely what
> my post was describing.


freewrl-1@rogers.com

>The old "100-year flood" levels are now
>getting mentally re-evaluated to "20-year >floods" by many officials.

The term "100-year flood" has always been somewhat elastic. The US government has been collecting rainfall data for not much more than 150 years, so who really knows what a true 100-year event is like? As one official said, "We have a 100-year rain around here about every five years"... ;-)

If a museum operates on former railroad trackage built in a flood plain, they may be forgiven. However, a railroads operated for profit could mobilize significant resources to repair periodic flood damage. Most museums would have to shut down for extended periods, if not for good. If a museum stores difficult-to-replace artifacts or equipment in a flood plain, they must face the certainty of a catastrophic loss. In certain areas, nature plainly says "Do not build here, for one day I will demolish what you have made".

tr2manz@frontiernet.net

n/m

Wilmington & Western Railroad
sethajackson@hotmail.com

> is "global warming"
> and flooding a concern for YOUR operation?
> Is the matter being considered/addressed?

The insiders at Branford are working on plans
to build replacement barns and shops on higher
land. Interim measures to raise the tracks
inside storage barns have come up against the
roofs of those buildings. In the meantime,
ordinary members are being advised not to waste
their labor on projects like fixing lights in
buildings that will be underwater when the
glaciers melt.

TyburnRR@cs.com

> In the meantime,
> ordinary members are being advised not to
> waste
> their labor on projects like fixing lights
> in
> buildings that will be underwater when the
> glaciers melt.

Heh, Heh. I like that.

Seriously, where the heck can you put a museum or tourist line where it would not be subject to some potential natural upheaval?

The east coast and Gulf coast have hurricanes and tropical storms; The midwest has tornadoes and floods; the northwest has volcanoes; the southwest has earthquakes and typhoons;, the Rockies have forest fires; the northern tier has blizzards and ice.

There ain't no 100% safe place. Nowhere. Nohow.

There isn't anyplace that is 100 percent safe, but there are locations that are better than others. This should always be taken into consideration when choosing locations for a facility.

TVRM is fortunate that our biggest concern related to inclimate weather is usually fallen trees. All of our facilities are located at elevations significantly above the flood plain, due mostly in part to the realignment and double tracking of the line in 1912. Much of our line runs on a fill that varies from 15 to 25 feet in height. During the flooding this past May, CSXT's Atlanta-Chattanooga line was shut down due to floodwaters (South Chickamauga Creek) and much of Chattanooga was flooded (some area streets were closed almost a week). With the exception of a few trees on the line, we were not significantly affected. We're not 100 percent safe from natural disasters, but most of Chattanooga would be underwater before flooding would affect the museum's main line.

awalker2002@comcast.net

Absolutely incorrect. What the News Journal article shows is the bias of their editorial board who want us all to live in the city and take a bus to the pristine country every weekend.

And thanks for slapping all of us Wilmington & Western volunteers with your "attitude". It's just what we need right now, like being poked in the eye with a stick ...

> Article below, in addition to showing a
> photo of what remains of the W&W's
> wooddale trestle, highlights precisely what
> my post was describing.


acp19809@yahoo.com

I would certainly hope that nobody in this industry begins to take the attitude of let's just give up. Nothing is easy, life is unpredictable, and it is even harder when you are dealing with historic equipement that is exposed to the elements. I firmly believe that there are things worth fighting for, the Wilmington & Western is one of them!!!

asholley@hotmail.com

> There ain't no 100% safe place. Nowhere.
> Nohow.

I'm not even fool enough to think that such a thing exists. However, there's "not 100% safe", and then there's "sitting duck".

Unfortunately, every attraction that makes the W&W an attractive ride--the wooden trestles, the location in a valley, the foliage, the rocky cliffs--is also a potential Achilles' heel. There are many other lines about which the same thing applies--for example, the rugged terrain of the C&TS and the Durango & Silverton and the Georgetown Loop, for example. It's one thing to have to drag a big rock off the track once a decade; it's another to have to reprofile a crumbling cliff every other year. If the trolley barn is in a place that's getting nailed by floods once a decade or less, it may well be worth considering whether to relocate the carbarn out of the flood plain, if not the entire operation.

Incidentally, for the record, the Baltimore Streetcar Museum's volunteers were busy building a stone dike around the streetcar barn on Falls Road in Baltimore this afternoon. They know they can't stop a flood by Isabel, but they can stop the nud that ruins the streetcar motors. (Everything of value in the Visitor's Center is several feet off the ground floor or upstairs.)


LNER4472-NOSPAM-@bcpl.net

> So, what *exactly* is your point? Should the
> B&O roundhouse get rebuilt, because,
> heck, it might not survive the next big
> snowfall.

*No, you do exactly what they're doing--you rebuild with better modern materials that don't have metallurgical flaws and 100 years of fatigue. And then when all is well again, you re-examine the roof of the carshop, just to be safe.

After all, builders build
> buildings to survive what is expected; what
> if something really unexpected comes along
> again?

*Tornados and Category 3-5 hurricanes can't be accomodated economically. Snowfalls had better be, especially wet snowfalls in borderline cold/slush Maryland.

> Are you suggesting that all of the preserved
> railway equipment should be moved from the
> west coast of North America to protect it?
> Where would you move it to?

*No, but I wouldn't build a museum on a hillside vunerable to flash fires once a decade.

> Or, should we all just give up, and go watch
> baseball on TV, with the knowledge that
> anything we do is liable to come to grief?

*No. But there ARE either ways to minimize risks in the first place, or plan for accomodating what the operation is in risk from. You plan for rusting salt air in coastal Carolina or Massachusetts, floods in creek-following valley railroads, and rockfalls on canyon railroads--and plan that they all get worse as time goes on. Or else you leave yourselves open to mortal injuries.

LNER4472-NOSPAM-@bcpl.net

> I always wondered what would happen to all
> those beautiful logging engines if Mt.
> Ranier decided to pull a Mt. St. Helens.

There was a educational cable special on North American Volcanoes a while back.Apparently, Ranier has the potential to make Mt. St Helen's like like a capgun and its more than likely a matter of when, not if. The USGS moniters Ranier VERY carefully.


superheater@rrmail.com