With respect to the posting below, has anyone got or can point me to, clear photos of RDG 2101 immediatly after the roundhouse fire that claimed her operating life? I'd also like to here from a knowledgeable source, regarding the damage sustained in that conflagration. It would seem that trading the recently operated 2101 for the C&O 614, which had been neglected for decades, wouls have been quite a leap in restoration. Who can explain?


glueck@maine.edu

It is well known that Ross wanted 614 for the Freedom Train but time ran out on the negotiations with Chessie. He then settled for what he could get that could be restored in time for the train to start. That was the 2101 and she was restored to service in only 32 days.

Many feel the fire was a second chance for Ross to aquire the 614. At the time the main reason given to the public for the retirement of the 2101 was fear that the frame had been bent by the heat of the fire. I have B&W photos I took inside the Hagerstown roundhouse before the cosmetic restoration began that show the paint was not even burned off the engine below the running boards. This would seem to support the theory that Ross wanted the roller bearing equiped 614.

The 614 was a very tired locomotive when it arrived in Hagerstown for overhaul. It needed everything. The cost of this shopping is said to have exceeded one million dollars. Could this have been the first million dollar restoration of a steam locomotive in the U.S.?

If you would like more information please contact me off link at the address above. It is far to much to include here.

John

jhbohon@yahoo.com

I didn't know that the #614 was considered for the Freedom Train. I have an old High Iron Book/Magazine that states that the proposed engines were NKP Berks, 755 & 757 (I think). I never understood why 759 wasn't considered when it was already in service.

I have always assumed that Ross Rowland liked Lima Super Power and prefered the Lima engines to
the Reading T-1's.

Did he have anything to do with the 4449 being restored for the Freedom Train?

Any info would be great,

-Alan Levy

alanl759@aol.com

I have slides I took the day after the fire, of it and a diesel in the Stevens Roundhouse. The news showed it burning the night before, and we were sick, since we finally had a steam engine in the Cincinnati area.
In November I chased what turned out to be the last run of 2101. It had finished the excursion season out of Columbus, OH, and was going to make a ferry run to Stevens for winter storage. I had heard that the coaches would be dropped at Russell, and the 2101 might pull freight to Stevens Yard. As it turned out 2101 pulled the coaches from Columbus, and then ran with only the tool car toward Cincy(Stevens). I remember it was kinda cold and drizzly,I shot some sound movies of that and remember how disapointed I was it did not have the freight.
My fondest riding memory of that engine was riding the one-way trip from Cumberland to Pittsburgh, and how we almost stalled several times on Sand Patch. Also the helicopter from Sunday Rivers was killing all the audio of the guys with sound recorders on the train.
I don't have any way to scan the slides for internet at this time. Maybe someday I will get the films transfered, but I doubt there is a large market for 2101 these days.
Greg Scholl
http://www.gregschollvideo.com

Videos and DVD's
sales@gregschollvideo.com

If these questions are so important why don't one of you simply ask Ross or someone who was involved. He's still alive so why not go to the source. Surely he can't be that hard to contact.
Relieves a lot of speculation by finding out the real answers!
I had heard he had a real interest in 611.
Greg

Videos and DVD's
sales@gregschollvideo.com

Quite a few locomotives were considered for the Freedom Train. These included NKP 757 and 763 doubleheaded. The 763 was moved from Roanoke to New Jersey for overhaul but reality set in and someone in the foundation realized the cost of coaling two berks. Others were the two PRR K-4's doubleheaded and N&W 611. Suprisingly the 611 was to have it's streamlining removed but I think the City of Roanoke shot it down.

A year or so before the train was to hit the rails Ross lost control of and left the foundation and some of the replacements would have loved to run it with diesels. Don Ball was one of steam holdouts and eventually the others understood the amount of publicity already out necessitated the use of steam. It was decided that an oil burner would be used to ease the fueling problem. That is where the 4449 came in and no Ross did not have any part of that project. It was handled by the foundation.

It was discovered at some point that 4449 was to big to be run in the northeast and once again some of the powers at the foundation were more than happy to substitute diesels. At the last minute Ross bought the T-1 from the Striegel Scrap Yard and enlisted the help of Bill Benson and some of his old High Iron gang to have it ready for the opening day of the Freedom Train. Thus came about the 32 day miracle at the B&O Riverside roundhouse. The train was scheduled to be pulled by diesels on its first legs until the 4449 overhaul could be completed and the engine moved east. I have often wondered what the Freedom Train people thought when Ross pulled his big blue 4-8-4 up and coupled it to the train.

I have no idea what went on in the negotiations between the railroad and Ross after the fire. As far as I know Ross nor anybody else has ever offered any clues. It must be remembered that he was running on the Chessie and for them the 614 would be a home road engine. If Ross did really want the 614 it would hard to blame him. It is all roller bearing and a very modern design that is made for the excursion world of our times. It could also be considered more sexy when publicity time comes.

As for asking Ross I do not know him that well and have not seen him in more than twenty years. I do not think it would be appropriate for me to ask him such a question because his personal affairs are none of my bussiness. I think if he wants us to know the answer he will tell the story himself. Many things have been said about Ross Rowland both pro and con and I have said some of both but one thing that must be said for him is that he was not afraid to put his money where his mouth was. I wish more people of means in this hobby would step up like he has.

I for one would love to hear the Ross Rowland story. If someone is looking for an article or perhaps even a book to write this would be a good subject. Considering the lack of information available on the 2101 for 614 swap I would not be suprised if the parties involved were sworn to secrecy. Perhaps someone who knows him well will take on the project before it is to late.

John

jhbohon@yahoo.com

Actually the Ross Rowland story has now been told. Mark I Video has just released a new Rowland VHS video documentary with interviews, footage of his excursions since the 60's. Perhaps it might answer some of your questions.

> Quite a few locomotives were considered for
> the Freedom Train. These included NKP 757
> and 763 doubleheaded. The 763 was moved from
> Roanoke to New Jersey for overhaul but
> reality set in and someone in the foundation
> realized the cost of coaling two berks.
> Others were the two PRR K-4's doubleheaded
> and N&W 611. Suprisingly the 611 was to
> have it's streamlining removed but I think
> the City of Roanoke shot it down.

> A year or so before the train was to hit the
> rails Ross lost control of and left the
> foundation and some of the replacements
> would have loved to run it with diesels. Don
> Ball was one of steam holdouts and
> eventually the others understood the amount
> of publicity already out necessitated the
> use of steam. It was decided that an oil
> burner would be used to ease the fueling
> problem. That is where the 4449 came in and
> no Ross did not have any part of that
> project. It was handled by the foundation.

> It was discovered at some point that 4449
> was to big to be run in the northeast and
> once again some of the powers at the
> foundation were more than happy to
> substitute diesels. At the last minute Ross
> bought the T-1 from the Striegel Scrap Yard
> and enlisted the help of Bill Benson and
> some of his old High Iron gang to have it
> ready for the opening day of the Freedom
> Train. Thus came about the 32 day miracle at
> the B&O Riverside roundhouse. The train
> was scheduled to be pulled by diesels on its
> first legs until the 4449 overhaul could be
> completed and the engine moved east. I have
> often wondered what the Freedom Train people
> thought when Ross pulled his big blue 4-8-4
> up and coupled it to the train.

> I have no idea what went on in the
> negotiations between the railroad and Ross
> after the fire. As far as I know Ross nor
> anybody else has ever offered any clues. It
> must be remembered that he was running on
> the Chessie and for them the 614 would be a
> home road engine. If Ross did really want
> the 614 it would hard to blame him. It is
> all roller bearing and a very modern design
> that is made for the excursion world of our
> times. It could also be considered more sexy
> when publicity time comes.

> As for asking Ross I do not know him that
> well and have not seen him in more than
> twenty years. I do not think it would be
> appropriate for me to ask him such a
> question because his personal affairs are
> none of my bussiness. I think if he wants us
> to know the answer he will tell the story
> himself. Many things have been said about
> Ross Rowland both pro and con and I have
> said some of both but one thing that must be
> said for him is that he was not afraid to
> put his money where his mouth was. I wish
> more people of means in this hobby would
> step up like he has.

> I for one would love to hear the Ross
> Rowland story. If someone is looking for an
> article or perhaps even a book to write this
> would be a good subject. Considering the
> lack of information available on the 2101
> for 614 swap I would not be suprised if the
> parties involved were sworn to secrecy.
> Perhaps someone who knows him well will take
> on the project before it is to late.

> John

Alan,

The freedom train was before my interest in steam trains, but I have read that they needed two engines because the 4449 would not fit into some of the Eastern tunnels that were part of the planned route.

In the end I think they ended up using a total of three engines. But the 4449 was the best known and the one that was here in San Francisco.

Ted miles

ted_miles@nps.gov

> Actually the Ross Rowland story has now been
> told. Mark I Video has just released a new
> Rowland VHS video documentary with
> interviews, footage of his excursions since
> the 60's. Perhaps it might answer some of
> your questions.

That one just went on my must have list. Let's hope for some good shots from the early days.

Thanks,

John


jhbohon@yahoo.com

> Alan,

> In the end I think they ended up using a
> total of three engines. But the 4449 was the
> best known and the one that was here in San
> Francisco.

> Ted miles

The Texas and Pacific 2-10-4 #610 was also used in the Texas area as the third engine.

4449 did also operate east, and finished up its tour in Miami, Florida. After that it made an Amtrak sponsored excursion to Birmingham for 3 days. I chased that one, and my dad rode some of it. A highlight was pacing the 4449 west along the Bee-Line Highway for 45 minutes straight at 75 mph!!!! We were the only car, and had to slow down for a flashing light in Indian Town, and that was it. Just prior to our pacing we had set-up for a shot west of W.Palm, and a cop had just nailed a string of chasers right where we had stopped. That left us and the 4449 alone, save for a small plane that also was chasing. Ah, the good old days! This was Feb 1977! The last part into Birmingham was really getting cold. My buddy was put on a plane to Cincinnati, where he arrived to minus 25 temps and a car that wouldn't start. I have lots of movies and slides from this run. Dad hated the chasing so much the first day, that he rode the second and third, and sat in the dome car most of the trip. This was his kind of trip...going somewhere in a big hurry behind a big steamer. Riders could get on and off at different points along the way. Boy those days are sure gone, eh!
Greg Scholl


Videos and DVD's
sales@gregschollvideo.com

Seen some pictures here last week of the 2102 and 614 in Reading, PA recently and was curious if Ross still owned the 614??


jay@clarityconnect.com

I believe you saw photos of C&O #614 in Port Clinton, PA since it is stored there by the Reading & Northern Railroad. Technically Ross Rowland still retains ownership to the locomotive although there is a long list of snags (mainly issues with NJT.) Mr. Rowland is to be commended on his long history of championing mainline steam. This type of activity is unrivaled in its challenges and setbacks. Without Ross Rowland as the "driving force", there would have been much less steam on the "High Iron" in the 1960's, 1970's, 1980's & 1990's!!!

This was my first mainline steam excursion ride as a high school buddy and I skipped class and rode the train from San Jose to Oakland. My friend, a non-railfan, was very impressed watching the eighty-inch drivers roll by the platform. Working over Cuesta Grade, 4449 had blasted the soot from the tops of the tunnels effectively weatherizing its tender and hiding the trailing Amtrak unit. Since this was a one-way trip, we returned home by walking to BART's West Oakland station, taking BART to Fremont and making a couple of county bus transfers home. What better excuse for missing school that day!

kamiddle@rockwellcollins.com

Since it wasn't mentioned in this thread, No. 1, as 2101 went by during AFT days, went to Birmingham in early 1976 where SR worked it 'til May or June. It arrived in Chattanooga with the AFT in June looking rather different than it had on the southbound trip in mid-winter. One would presume the work done was more than cosmetic. It made for memorable images either way.

that other Chattanooga website
mail@steamvalley.com

John,

I remember they put sidesheets in the firebox along with three new syphons while the engine was in Birmingham. The running gear also recieved extensive repairs but I do not remember the details. I am not sure how much work the Southern did on the 2101 but Rowland had his own crew there too. The 32 day overhaul in Baltimore and lots of fortitude got the engine to Chicago without misssing a trip but it was far from complete. I think they spent about $100,000.00 dollars in Birmingham.

John

jhbohon@yahoo.com