This just in from the AP wire....

Trolley Museum Fire Ruled Accidental
Associated Press
Monday, October 6, 2003; 2:32 PM

A fire that gutted eight historic trolleys and their car barn was ruled accidental Monday, with investigators believing it started in one of the trolleys.

"The fire appears to be accidental, more than likely caused by a malfunction or mechanical problem with one of the trolleys," said Pete Piringer, spokesman for the Montgomery County Fire and Rescue Service.

"The exact cause is probably going to be undetermined forever, because a lot of the evidence and materials were consumed in the fire," Piringer said. Arson, lightning and electrical problems with the building were ruled out earlier.

Firefighters were called to the museum in the early hours of Sept. 28, but investigators believe the fire had burned for a while before it was noticed. Piringer said by the time anyone realized there was a fire, it was already in the advanced stages.

Among the eight trolley cars were four that used to traverse the streets of the Washington area. One dated back to 1899. A 1935 trolley was a one-of-a-kind experimental model.

Damage is estimated at about $10 million.

eledbetter@rypn.org

Damn.

Okay, an accident, something failed electrically or mechanically, or someone made a mistake.

That skyrocket I just heard--was that our insurance rates going up? <:-(

LNER4472-NOSPAM-@bcpl.net

> That skyrocket I just heard--was that our
> insurance rates going up? <:-(

Only if they insured the trolleys for true replacement or reproduction value, which most museums do/did not have enough money to pay the premium on anyway.

Steve

SZuidervee@aol.com

How does this happen? Do they leave he trolley cars powered up when they go home at night. They must have made a mistake in the press release.

It seems to me if you pull in the barn and the trolley is not on fire. Turn off the power and go home there should not be any reason for the trolley to catch fire.

Any thoughts on this one?

Tom Gears

Good question. What Tom means, I think, is that the trolley poles are always pulled down and secured when the car is put in the barn. This is the policy at the Baltimore museum. Is is also true for National Capital?

Herb Harwood

> How does this happen? Do they leave he
> trolley cars powered up when they go home at
> night. They must have made a mistake in the
> press release.

> It seems to me if you pull in the barn and
> the trolley is not on fire. Turn off the
> power and go home there should not be any
> reason for the trolley to catch fire.

> Any thoughts on this one?

> Tom Gears


herbhar@yahoo.com

The cars were all secured: poles hooked down, brakes set, wheels chocked. The rectifier was tuned off and disconnected from the trolley feed. Solvents, paints, combustibles, etc. are stored in a separate building. No maintenance is performed in the barn that was burned. The intensity of the fire claimed 8 cars and any clues.

Wesley

National Capital Trolley Museum

> This just in from the AP wire....

> .... Arson,
> lightning and electrical problems with the
> building were ruled out earlier.

How can they rule out electrical problems with the building, but not the cars? Or arson, for that matter?

> How can they rule out electrical problems
> with the building, but not the cars? Or
> arson, for that matter?

I am no expert on fire investigation, but I can tell you that the site was secured and investigated jointly by MCFD and the Federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) for nearly a week. I assume that they have their forensic reasons for ruling out arson (lack of evidence of accelerants?) and building wiring.

eledbetter@rypn.org

> The cars were all secured: poles hooked
> down, brakes set, wheels chocked. The
> rectifier was tuned off and disconnected
> from the trolley feed. Solvents, paints,
> combustibles, etc. are stored in a separate
> building. No maintenance is performed in the
> barn that was burned. The intensity of the
> fire claimed 8 cars and any clues.

> Wesley

Wesley,

Thank you. The intensity of the fire surprised me.

The building walls appear to be brick or something similar. What was the construction of the roof?

Brian Norden
board member,
Orange Empire Ry Museum
Association of Ry Museums

bnorden49@earthlink.net

First of all, I'm very sorry to hear of the loss at NCTM. So much history obliterated so quickly is hard to accept.

We lost a 100-year old barn to fire about 8 years ago. The local fire dept insisted the origin of the fire was a stored microwve oven, even though we told them it was unplugged! Then our insurance company sent in their investigator who decided the fire was caused by mice eating the old wiring. I guess it all depends on who does the detective work. Bottom line was that our company, though disinclined, paid out what they were supposed to pay, then dropped us, which put us in a higher risk group. Naturally the next policy/insurer we got was more expensive.

It's not worth the time to start belly aching about the insurance industry, but what other business is allowed such behavior? It's a little like picking up the marbles and going home!


SJHussar@aol.com

> How does this happen?
> Any thoughts on this one?

> Tom Gears

There are lots of opportunities for a fire on a trolley which was operated previously on the same day, if in fact that was the cause. Many of the electrical controls, switches, etc are housed in wood boxes lined with transite or other 'fireproofing' material. If that lining was in poor repair and there was arcing or another ignition source the wood lining could ignite and smolder for hours before flaring up. If the switches are not cleaned regularly there could have been a buildup of carbon dust, or other dirt which might be flammable. Resistance grids under the cars can run really hot if there are periods of slow speed operation and they are supported often below a wood car floor with minimal provision or separation from other flammable components. The traction motors themselves need to be cleaned and maintained, and there is always the possibility of wire insulation in poor or deteriorated shape. Often the wiring travels under roof structure or in hollow wall spaces which are essentially wood boxes. Again a hot spot could smolder for hours undetected.

Too many possibilities and almost too much to do completely forestall a purely accidental source; but maybe another wakeup call to do rigorous inspections and maintenance, even at the expense of running what might be considered a car fit for operations.

Bob Kutella


68trolley@comcast.net

> The building walls appear to be brick or
> something similar. What was the construction
> of the roof?

The building walls were unpainted and unfinished concrete block. The roof, I beleive, was wood subroofing and shingles over wooden trusses. It was not metal in any event.

eledbetter@rypn.org

>Other potential fire causes are a carelessly discarded cigarette, spontaneous combustion, or a small fire inside one of the cars.

A local hardware store burned recently when some rags containing wood preservative were not put in a covered waste can. If someone had been working on one of the cars, spontaneous combustion might be a cause.

Whenever you take down a head lining in most old cars, you will find evidence of earlier light socket fires. They start as an arc between the light bulbh and the socket. Usually operating vibration loosens the bulb, but they can be caused by the contact in the socket losing spring tension.

If a streetcar company had electrical problems with a car, frequently they would leave it outside the carbarn overnight just in case a small fire might be burning undetected inside the car. That way they wouldn't lose a whole barn full of cars if the fire flared up.



fkrock@pacbell.net

It appears, other than a lot of speculation, the cause may never really be known as to the cause of the fire that resulted in the loss of 8 vintage streetcars.

Yes, it could have been a cigerette, or perhaps some stray spark that might have been detected. OR it could have been caused by a chafted wire, or a car heater that working that day (either accidently or on purpose) and some materials from the seat came into contact with it, or even some paper that was dropped behind a window, that made contact, and much later resulted in this fire. Ever notice the amount of old transfers and other small bits of paper at the floor level, behind the paneling ?

I can only hope that all museums as a whole review their proceedures and maintenance practices. This would also apply to both the volunteers who operate and maintain the cars, and for more vigilance in observing conditions that might later lead to another disaster. It doesn't take much. I recall one museum, in the late afetrnoon, some one discovered smoldering wood from and english car. Had it gone undetected, an early, but much larger scale fire would have resulted. I am sure we all have similiar stories to tell.

Most museums have large percentages of thier collections in one or more barns. Most with no fire fighting equipment, and in locaions where land was once cheap, and the local fire departments are still not prepared to deal with large scale fires.

Let us hope this turns into a pro active activity for museums, thier administrations, thier volunteers, and the local fire protection services.

Sincerely,

Karl Johnson