First and foremost, what a wonderful, fun trip!

Best Parts:

-Long train of 1920's coaches, no backup tender for 2317. How so many railfans complain about diesal assists and don't even seem to notice "rainbow" or Amtrak consists has always been a mystery to me.

-SPEED. Train was a-rollin' in an awful lot of areas. Staff said top speed would be "about 35," I estimate we hit 40 early and often. Authentic coaches going an authentic (for mountain runs) speed = good.

-Organization. I was on one of a 261-series of winter trips years ago at Steamtown which was poorly coordinated (no one seemed to be in charge). I was pleasantly surprised that this trip ran like clockwork . . . actually ran quite a bit ahead of schedule.

-Weather. 'Nuff said.

-Destination. An old train station, with a restaurant/bar inside and more nearby. Doesn't get much better to these eyes.

-Scenery. Fall has arrived in the poconos!

Worst Parts:

-Although certainly understandable, I don't have to like the diesals :) At least they cut off in Tobyhanna. Besides, I have many old pictures of steam engines in front, assisting a diesal-hauled train, so it didn't look all that far-fetched :) QUESTION for those "in-the-know:" Could 3254 handle the 10 cars when repaired?

-Steamer ran tender first on the way back (still sounded great, even with diesals on the front). If there are any devils reading, I am willing to sell my soul for access to a wye for Steamtown. The one at Portland will do fine.

JPS


ironandsteam@msn.com

Overall I enjoyed the trip. I would consider riding again later this month if the train were to run "diesel free" at least eastbound. I'm sure there would have been a lot of repeat riders on this trip had it been diesel free. I'm really curious about needing the extra power --- I'm sure there are some mechanical engineers on this board. Would one of you be willing to check the #'s to see if the 2317 could have pulled this train solo? What #'s would you need? Maybe I can help?

> I am willing to sell my soul for access to a
> wye for Steamtown. The one at Portland will
> do fine.

> JPS

I rode the Aughust trip to DWG. I also enjoyed it. What if the trip originated at East Stroudsburg and went to Scranton? Steam leads properly both days, and you get to spend the day looking at Steamtown. Deadhead moves are tender first or put diesels on the back. Of course deahead cost extra $$$.

Tom Parkins

s326@aol.com

It's been a few years since regular NPS excursions to Moscow needed over 8 coaches, but if any of you remember, in 1993, every October trip was a double header(Steam), and, in later years, every time we went over 8 cars, the GP9 514 assisted until the train reached Winton (under I380 bridge) Last Saturday was expected to be as cold as the previous, and it was planned the Steam engine would provide steam heat in addition to propulsion. Plus, the Lehigh Valleys 353's weight is higher than the other coaches. All these factors lead to needing a diesel assist.
The tracks level off in Gouldsboro, but the track structure to remove diesel helpers is in Tobyhanna. Otherwise, 2317 could have soloed a bit further.
By the way, I seem to remember a DL&W rule stating that Pacifics needed to doublehead when the train exceeded 12 cars. Other RRs may have had a similar rule. This was not for lack of power, but for keeping up with the timetable. Other comments are welcome.

http://www.nps.gov/stea/

Hello All

Checking my odd notes that I've jotted down over the years, there has been more than one occasion where the 2317 has handled a train in excess of 8 coaches.

If I read my notes correctly...

During the Grand Opening of the Steamtown Complex a combination of mechanical difficulties with MILW 261 and an overzealous schedule caused the "shuttle" (no layover) rides to moscow to run signifigantly late. As a result several departures/trains were combined and the 2317 subbed for the faltering 261. If I remember correctly the 2317 ran 3 trips one afternoon with 3 CN Montreal heavyweight commuter coaches, 2 lightweight coaches, 3 DL&W MU trailers and the Erie business car. Thats about the equivelent of 4 heavyweight and 5 lightweight cars. Again if memory serves I think they had over a half tender of coal left at the end of the day. The R&N 425 handled the alternating train with 2 of the 261's lightweight cars, several DL&W boonton cars, 1 CN Montreal car and the MKT business car.

For several weeks after the 1995 grand opening the excursion trains were packed to capacity. The July 9 1995 excursion with a record 650 people on board sticks in my mind as the one that was involved in an incident with 2 ATV's. That train had 2317 and 11 cars, a mix of DL&W/CNJ which was not uncommon for the summer of '95.

Just a few "remember whens" from the days when things were somewhat more interesting in Scranton.

Dave Crosby

bing@epix.net

> 2317 ran 3 trips one afternoon with 3 CN
> Montreal heavyweight commuter coaches, 2
> lightweight coaches, 3 DL&W MU trailers
> and the Erie business car.
> The July 9 1995 excursion had 2317 and 11
> cars, a mix of DL&W/CNJ which was not
> uncommon for the summer of '95.

In my own personal opinion:

WHEN THE DIESEL HELPERS ARE ON THE TRAIN RIGHT OUT OF THE STATION, IT SAYS TO THE PUBLIC: "THE STEAMER CAN'T HANDLE THE TRAIN."

IS THIS WHAT THE NATIONAL PARK SERVICE WANTS TO TEACH VISITORS ?

RUN THE DIESELS AHEAD, AS PROTECTION POWER, IF NEEDED.

LET THE STEAM ENGINE AT LEAST TRY TO MAKE IT.

N.J. Transit was willing to do this with the 614.
Bigger engine, but busier railroad.

Yes, it makes the "form-D's" a little complicated, but it's not happening every day.

For what it’s worth, I would agree with Mr. Gilbert - the addition of a diesel on any “steam” trip says very plainly that “the steamer can’t handle the train.”

IÂ’ll never forget the long-awaited day I finally got to ride the Grand Canyon Railway. The train was headed by #4960, but right behind it was a diesel. Good photos of #4960 in action, then, were spoiled by the dieselÂ’s appearance, and I could only get such photos of her in the yard at the end of the day. But that was a secondary disappointment. What will forever linger as my image of the GCRy is that #4960 couldnÂ’t pull the train, or wasnÂ’t dependable enough to make the trip. And IÂ’ll probably never again have the chance to go back and ride the GCRy again.

The GCRy guide in our car told me that the diesel was there in case the steamer broke down (and that it really operated by steam anyway). If that was indeed the case, or if #4960 couldnÂ’t pull the train by herself, then I have to wonder why:

1. #4960 wasnÂ’t maintained well enough to be thoroughly dependable for the job she was called to do, or.....

2. one of the other steam locomotives wasnÂ’t called into service to double-head as a standby or for more power, or to pull a second section, or.....

3. so many tickets were sold that the train was allowed to become too long, and thus too heavy for #4960 to manage by herself, or......

4. the diesel couldnÂ’t have been put at the end as a pusher, thus being a bit less conspicuous (especially for photos).

Perhaps there were good reasons preventing these possible alternatives, but I had responded to the marketings of the railroad that promote it as a steam operation (with three steamers listed on the roster) and drove over 1,000 miles to see a historic steam engine in action and not nursed along by diesel. And I continue to wonder how many of the other passengers that day left with the idea that steam engines really arenÂ’t very good at pulling trains so itÂ’s probably good that we got rid of them and went to more dependable diesels.

Both DL&W and Chessie did just that. The 1973 759 trip to Scranton stalled on the climb up from E. Stroudsburg; 2 Geeps promptly came down and coupled up.

Chessie Steam Special (RDG) 2101 stalled climbing from Glenwood Jct (Pittsburgh) on the line to Washington PA, and a GP-40 was waiting at the top.

Of course RDG itself coupled 2 Baldwins ahead of 2124 from Tamaqua to Locust Summit, but they didn't do it again for 50 more trips.

Electric City Trolley Museum Association

First and foremost, what a wonderful, fun
> trip!

> Best Parts:

> -Long train of 1920's coaches, no backup
> tender for 2317. How so many railfans
> complain about diesal assists and don't even
> seem to notice "rainbow" or Amtrak
> consists has always been a mystery to me.

> -SPEED. Train was a-rollin' in an awful lot
> of areas. Staff said top speed would be
> "about 35," I estimate we hit 40
> early and often. Authentic coaches going an
> authentic (for mountain runs) speed = good.

> -Organization. I was on one of a 261-series
> of winter trips years ago at Steamtown which
> was poorly coordinated (no one seemed to be
> in charge). I was pleasantly surprised that
> this trip ran like clockwork . . . actually
> ran quite a bit ahead of schedule.

> -Weather. 'Nuff said.

> -Destination. An old train station, with a
> restaurant/bar inside and more nearby.
> Doesn't get much better to these eyes.

> -Scenery. Fall has arrived in the poconos!

> Worst Parts:

> -Although certainly understandable, I don't
> have to like the diesals :) At least they
> cut off in Tobyhanna. Besides, I have many
> old pictures of steam engines in front,
> assisting a diesal-hauled train, so it
> didn't look all that far-fetched :) QUESTION
> for those "in-the-know:" Could
> 3254 handle the 10 cars when repaired?

As the former Operations Officer for Steamtown Foundation in Scranton, I can offer the following: We did some limited testing to see what #3254 would pull from Scranton to Moscow, and I was personally involved on one memorable trip. We used an SD-24 diesel helper to start an 11 car tain (to avoid slipping in the vicinity of the Lackawanna Station hotel and Scranton University) and got up to 15 MPH by Harrison Avenue--where the diesel was placed in idle for the balance of the trip. Observing the speed recorder in the SD-24, 18 MPH was the top speed achieved to Nay Aug Jct. (now Winton). Factor in the weight of the idling SD-24, and you've got the equivalent of a 13 car train. The answer to your question in my book would be that #3254 could physically handle a ten car train out of Scranton, but probably not at track speed for the first seven or eight miles. If anyone knows Seth Corwin, ask him if he remembers the trip I'm referring to. He did one helluva good job as engineer that day! F. G. Bailey > -Steamer ran tender first on the way back
> (still sounded great, even with diesals on
> the front). If there are any devils reading,
> I am willing to sell my soul for access to a
> wye for Steamtown. The one at Portland will
> do fine.

> JPS


fred.gracebailey@earthlink.net

We road the trip to Tobyhanna last Columbus day and in August this year there were on helpers on ether trip. Why couldn't the diesels just go ahead of the train just in case? Once the train is moving I don't think track speed is a problem. Last year Columbus day we left about twenty min late and arriver ahead of time I think 2317 would be able to handle it.
Al

>


azubal@nycap.rr.com

One nice solution to this would be to restore 759 or 2124 to operartion where they would be able to handle the heavier train up the grade but right now we are still waiting for 3713 to be finished.

I ask that sarcastically. I bet #2317 could walk 12 coaches out of Scranton: if you want her to be your "beater." (That's Heyna-talk for the rusty car you abuse.)

Unfortunately, she's a 70 year old antique engine that gets used quite a bit and has had some difficulty keeping her running gear "right." It is probably in the best interest of the artifact to not pound the p!$$ out of her going up Roaring Brook Gorge.

What to do? Well... if there were only 200 tickets sold, I imagine the NPS could have run a 5-6 car train without the diesels.

I have a feeling we might see more of that sort of thing.... a higher ticket price and a shorter train just to reduce wear.

If it were a one-time "let's work her to her heels" event, then maybe there's some breathing room, but #2317 works the hill on every trip she makes. She can't regularly be stressed to the max.

Rob

> What to do? Well... if there were only 200
> tickets sold, I imagine the NPS could have
> run a 5-6 car train without the diesels.

> Rob

Six coaches (of 18 rows of seats) would allow 216 passengers to each have a window seat.

That would be a treat.

I don't know what NPS' policy is on capacity. Normally a coach seat accomodates 2 butts, unless they're high&wides.

These are the little details that will be worked out in time.

Let me state that personnally, I am all in favor of these trips to the Water Gap, and I hope they continue into the future.

HOW ABOUT A WINTER/SNOW TRIP ?