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EBT, how much rail is still there?
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Author:  Ken Jones [ Mon Oct 13, 2003 3:09 pm ]
Post subject:  EBT, how much rail is still there?
Just out of curiosity, exactly how much of the original right of way is still intact. The current EBT operations use very little compared to what was there....I remember reading an article about the EBT a few years back in one of the magazines, and can't remember what all it said. Is the track intact from end to end, or are there sections missing? Since much of the track hasn't seen a train in 40 or so years, i'm guessing it's pretty rough, and would take a huge cash injection to bring the entire line back to operation. Anywho, just curious.

Ken Jones Jr.
digitekfx@kwic.com
Owner - Digitech Effects - Lighting & Sound Production
Operations - Trillium Railway - St. Thomas & Eastern
Niagara Falls Railway Museum
http://www.nfrm.ca
4th Annual Niagara Falls Model Railway Show - Sunday March 7, 2004
Optimist Park Hall - 10am-3:30pm

Niagara Falls Railway Museum
digitekfx@kwic.com
Author:  Erik Ledbetter [ Mon Oct 13, 2003 3:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: EBT, how much rail is still there?
Is the track
> intact from end to end, or are there
> sections missing?

The track is "intact" all the way from Mt. Union to Wood and a little beyond--essentially, the entire main stem of the EBT from end to end. Of course, "intact" in this context means two ribbons of never-removed rail, with 45 years of second-growth forest growing up between them.

There is no track on the Shade Gap branch except for the standard-gauge troley line of Railways to Yesterday. There is no track on most of the other branches either--the NARCO spur, the Joller spur, etc.

eledbetter@rypn.org
Author:  Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Mon Oct 13, 2003 6:05 pm ]
Post subject:  A few more details
If one were actually to walk the main line the entire distance, s/he would find a huge variety of track states.

Standard-gauge track has actually been laid on the line from the EBT's former PRR interchange to a planned industrial park to the southeast of Mt. Union. A standard-gauge Plymouth(?) now sits in the enginehouse stall adjacent to standard-gauge 0-6-0 #3, on the track where sister 6 sat before sale to the Whitewater Valley RR in Indiana.

From there to Shirleysburg and from Orbisonia to Alvan, you will find everything imaginable: washouts with track in the air; trees many inches thick swallowing up rail and ties; handsomely-manicured track seemingly ready for another train (in the front yard of one school and one industry), thoroughly-deteriorated track in the tunnels, and even at least one spot where the right-of-way has been illegally broached by a dirt road, with the rails rudely dragged out of the way.

It's the opinion of railroad professionals I have dealt with that, as much as they'd love to restore the original track, it would be more economically feasible to rip up the track and build anew. This would presumably extend as well to the badly-deteriorated Pogue truss bridge and the Aughwick Creek concrete-arch bridge.

If one wants more specifics, you can try to hunt down a copy of the National Park Service's "Study of Alternatives" from when they were looking at acquisition of the EBT. It gives extensive (but now dated!) analysis of the railroad's overall condition, especially the right-of-way.

LNER4472-NOSPAM-@bcpl.net
Author:  Jack A. Siffert [ Mon Oct 13, 2003 6:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A few more details
> If one were actually to walk the main line
> the entire distance, s/he would find a huge
> variety of track states.

> Standard-gauge track has actually been laid
> on the line from the EBT's former PRR
> interchange to a planned industrial park to
> the southeast of Mt. Union. A standard-gauge
> Plymouth(?) now sits in the enginehouse
> stall adjacent to standard-gauge 0-6-0 #3,
> on the track where sister 6 sat before sale
> to the Whitewater Valley RR in Indiana.

> From there to Shirleysburg and from
> Orbisonia to Alvan, you will find everything
> imaginable: washouts with track in the air;
> trees many inches thick swallowing up rail
> and ties; handsomely-manicured track
> seemingly ready for another train (in the
> front yard of one school and one industry),
> thoroughly-deteriorated track in the
> tunnels, and even at least one spot where
> the right-of-way has been illegally broached
> by a dirt road, with the rails rudely
> dragged out of the way.

> It's the opinion of railroad professionals I
> have dealt with that, as much as they'd love
> to restore the original track, it would be
> more economically feasible to rip up the
> track and build anew. This would presumably
> extend as well to the badly-deteriorated
> Pogue truss bridge and the Aughwick Creek
> concrete-arch bridge.

> If one wants more specifics, you can try to
> hunt down a copy of the National Park
> Service's "Study of Alternatives"
> from when they were looking at acquisition
> of the EBT. It gives extensive (but now
> dated!) analysis of the railroad's overall
> condition, especially the right-of-way.

Trees in the right of way? Rail hanging in the air? bad bridges? Roads over the right of way?? what's the big deal? been there! overcame that! State turnpike, high powered locals opposing you? been there overcame that!!! And this wasn't something as historicaly important as the EBT!
The historic importance of the EBT should make this easy. Not to easy, but anything worth saving is worth the fight! And this is worth saving!!!!

irss@eriecoast.com
Author:  Nevin Byers [ Mon Oct 13, 2003 6:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A few more details
> Trees in the right of way? Rail hanging in
> the air? bad bridges? Roads over the right
> of way?? what's the big deal? been there!
> overcame that! State turnpike, high powered
> locals opposing you? been there overcame
> that!!! And this wasn't something as
> historicaly important as the EBT!
> The historic importance of the EBT should
> make this easy. Not to easy, but anything
> worth saving is worth the fight! And this is
> worth saving!!!!

All that is needed is a huge sum of money and a ton of manpower. Nobody wants to see the EBT saved more than I, but until money arrives, very little can be done.


The Official East Broad Top Railroad Homepage
Author:  Ken Jones [ Mon Oct 13, 2003 7:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A few more details
Well, money is the root of all fun, so to speak. Like any major historical project, it all comes down to funding....One of these days I plan to get back down there, to see what's there, and go for a ride, since last time i was there I was about 8 or 9....As well, i'm guessing of all the steam engines on site, is 14 the only one in operation??

Ken

> All that is needed is a huge sum of money
> and a ton of manpower. Nobody wants to see
> the EBT saved more than I, but until money
> arrives, very little can be done.


Niagara Falls Railway Museum
digitekfx@kwic.com
Author:  Erik Ledbetter [ Mon Oct 13, 2003 7:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A few more details
As
> well, i'm guessing of all the steam engines
> on site, is 14 the only one in operation??

Yes, for this year. I would guess that next year 15 will be the only operating engine while 14 begins FRA compliance work.

eledbetter@rypn.org
Author:  Bob Yarger [ Mon Oct 13, 2003 9:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Motorcar groups?
I realize that preservation of the EBT's historic buildings must always come first, and that the Friends of EBT have their hands completely full with those projects. On reopening more of the track, however, I've often wondered if one of the motorcar groups might be enticed to participate, beginning with tree and brush removal. No doubt a complete rehab would be necessary for train operation, but motorcar runs could begin with much less work, probably every fifth or sixth tie. Once the track were safe enough for public motorcar excursions, those runs would attract a few more visitors and keep the right of way viable.

Most motorcar owners have standard gauge machines, but there are still a number of narrow gauge models extant, certainly enough for what would be needed. Has this idea ever been passed around before?

ryarger@rypn.org
Author:  Bob Yarger [ Mon Oct 13, 2003 10:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Working on the Nevada Northern
Here's a piece from Mark Bassett on a motorcar group doing just that.


http://nevadanorthernrailway.net/throttle/throttle101103.htm
ryarger@rypn.org
Author:  Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Tue Oct 14, 2003 12:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Motorcar groups on EBT?
On
> reopening more of the track, however, I've
> often wondered if one of the motorcar groups
> might be enticed to participate, beginning
> with tree and brush removal. No doubt a
> complete rehab would be necessary for train
> operation, but motorcar runs could begin
> with much less work, probably every fifth or
> sixth tie. Once the track were safe enough
> for public motorcar excursions, those runs
> would attract a few more visitors and keep
> the right of way viable.

I've heard hearsay that a group attempted to do just this back in the 1980s, but was ordered to cease and desist by the Kovalchicks. The impetus at the time was supposedly that certain property owners adjacent to the EBT were readying claims to annex EBT right-of-way under some law stating that a railroad not operated for 25 years would be considered abandoned. Thus, the motivation of the crew was simply to bash out enough of a path that a motorized section car could roll over the line and thus claim that the line was indeed being maintained for future use. Somehow, I think Kovalchick's lawyers were able to come up with legal angles to fend off against the potential squatters (for one, I think the railroad technically was never formally abandoned through the ICC).

In a way, however, it's too bad that any such renegades weren't permitted to proceed with this plan, if it really happened. It would be easier to take down 20 years of brush now rather than the 47 years' worth any restorers are now up against!



LNER4472-NOSPAM-@bcpl.net
Author:  Jim Vliet [ Tue Oct 14, 2003 6:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A few more details
I have some photos of the current state of the inactive portion of the EBT on my website. I will be adding some additional photos soon.

Best regards,
Jim Vliet

From Alvan to Mt. Union
jvliet@optonline.net
Author:  Ken Jones [ Tue Oct 14, 2003 9:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A few more details
HOLY CRAP!!!! Jim's site gives a great over view of the unused parts of the EBT....It's amazing that anything even went into that tunnel, as it looks sooooo small....There's no ties on that one bridge, and all the crossings are paved over....
You don't need money to rebuild it, you need a frickin miracle....Thanks for sending the link Jim, much appreciated, also thanks to those who have provided info on this great subject.

Ken Jones

> I have some photos of the current state of
> the inactive portion of the EBT on my
> website. I will be adding some additional
> photos soon.

> Best regards,
> Jim Vliet


Niagara Falls Railway Museum
digitekfx@kwic.com
Author:  Chris Coleman [ Wed Oct 15, 2003 9:13 am ]
Post subject:  Take the EBT Virtual Tour *PIC*
If you want the big scoop on what is at the East Broad Top, take the the EBT Virtual Tour. It covers the line from end to end including all branches. Every building, bridge, siding, town and industry is included. Information is thin on some items, but data is added on a regular basis.

http://www.spikesys.com/EBT/Tour/top.html

East Broad Top Virtual Tour
Image
ebtrr@spikesys.com
Author:  Bob Yarger [ Wed Oct 15, 2003 10:03 am ]
Post subject:  Fiber Optic possibilities?
Just curious if there are possibilities for laying fiber optic lines along the right of way? The heavy brush on the old Rock Island line in western Missouri was cleared by fiber optic crews, who used the extant rails for their hi-rail vehicles. I don't of any narrow gauge hi-rail trucks, but this might help with brush clearing and provide some income.

Missouri Central RR (ex-CRI&P)
ryarger@rypn.org
Author:  Erik Ledbetter [ Wed Oct 15, 2003 2:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fiber Optic possibilities?
> Just curious if there are possibilities for
> laying fiber optic lines along the right of
> way?

I'd say effectively zero. It's hard to see who or what would generate enough data or voice traffic to make it worth laying that kind of bandwidth through that area. Unlike a disused trunk line, the EBT does not originate, terminate, or pass through major urban areas.

eledbetter@rypn.org
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