All the comments below regarding the use of diesels on the various Pocono trips sort of require some comment from an something of an insider. Of course I need to preface my remarks with the somewhat obligatory caveat that these comments represent MY OPINION and are based on my observations and discussions but in no way represent the views of the NPS.

You have to understand that there are more important considerations than the connotations that “steam can’t handle it” or the lessened esthetic value of a train with infernal combustion units trailing the steamer. Prudence, NPS policy and NORAC Rule S demand safety as the primary consideration. You absolutely do not create exposures to risk that can be easily disposed of with a couple of rented ALCO’s.

The truth is as a visual showcase steam is wonderful, but relative to a diesel electric, it is an inferior machine, with less tolerances for conditions that deviate from the ideal. If that’s the message that’s conveyed, well it’s the truth and perhaps the best illustration of why steam was abandoned in the first place. (It would be really good if I could have Jack Nicholson saying “you can’t handle the truth” here.)We are here to present reality, not an illusion. We are presenting a portrait of the past, not living in it.

Just as you plan to operate a boiler well within its tested maximum, you need to do the same with a high profile excursion. Wet rail and leaves on the track must be anticipated in the Poconos in the fall. Anywhere and anytime, you might get a load of coal that has a high ash content, creating a firebed that’s thicker than ideal, impairing combustion. Then theres’s always the possibility that your stoker “cr*ps” out. What if there’s a tresspasser that requires you to stop around Gorge? How about a nice hot Number 2 driver bearing at say Analomink? Now you have hundreds of people tens of miles from home. These types of situations have to be disposed of prior to running the trip.

Consider the history of this line. The DL&W regularly doubleheaded their 1100Â’s on long trains. Even the 1500 or 1600Â’s got a an occasional second chair. IÂ’m not at all thrilled by the failure to have the 3254 out this year or the 3713 situation or the fact that the perfect engine (the 759) sits. Those situations however, are what the cards the operational staff was dealt. One steamer is the constraint they had to deal with.

There is NO room for error on these trips. Do you think the member(s) of Congress or other government officials are going to be at all accomodating to being stranded or delayed, let alone a train full of riders who experience shows about a half hour of tolerance for stops or delays.

These trips are double edged swords. They are interesting because they are rare-mileage trips traversing some really difficult and isolated territory. They are difficult to plan for for that very reason.

OK, IÂ’ve given my 2 centsÂ…..



superheater@rrmail.com

Hello All

Superheater makes some good points above, as does Rob Davis about not repeatedly beating up an engine.

A few thoughts...

On Saturdays return Delware Water Gap train I stood at Cresco, one of the steapest parts of the westbound grade and listened to the 2317 slip several times heading upgrade. Without the DL Diesels, would the train have made it? I don't know. In my opinion having westbound helpers may have been a prudent measure.

However...

On Monday's train, the 2317 took the same consist as the Water Gap train (including private cars) out of Scranton to Tobyhanna without the diesel assist. I'm not sure why the same train that got diesel helpers (which were cut off at Tobyhanna) on the eastbound trip one day then ran solo two days later.

On a related note...

The 2004 Steamtown Schedule is printed and out already. There are indeed only 28 trips set to operate out of Scranton at this point.

On the Mermorial Day, July 4th and Labor Day weekends trips will run once a day to Tobyhanna and then again on each weekend in October.

On Saturdays only in July and August, trips are scheduled to operate once a day on the 10 MPH Carbondale line.

On October 2 and 16 trips are scheduled into the "Pocono Region" which I have only to assume by its $75 dollar price tag is the Stroudsburg/Water Gap ride. Thats a total of 19 mainline trips for the whole of 2004.

Next Year there will be NO trips in May and June and NO trips in September not counting the holiday weekends.

Dave Crosby

bing@epix.net

With respect heater, I gotta take exception about the idea that steam has less tolerance for varied condition than diesel.

Steam can run through two feet of water. Diesels can't handle two inches. Steam can run at 10,000 feet altitude without losing a pound of drawbar pull - not so with diesels. Steam can limp in with one side down, slipped tires, broken axle, late but make it home.

Tolerances for steam machinery are very broad and forgiving compared to diesels - a diesel can die due to a minor malfunction in one of any number of delicate electronic control circuits, it takes a major malfunction of a heavy and robust component to render a steam locomotive incapable of operation.

If modern steam locomotives act unreliable it is due more to their age combined with a lack of existing infrastructure to keep them going than to any inherent mechanical weakness. A would venture to suggest that a newly built modern steam locomotive would be more reliable than a new diesel, although probably not as economical.

dave



irondave@bellsouth.net

> With respect heater, I gotta take exception
> about the idea that steam has less tolerance
> for varied condition than diesel.

> Steam can run through two feet of water.
> Diesels can't handle two inches. Steam can
> run at 10,000 feet altitude without losing a
> pound of drawbar pull - not so with diesels.
> Steam can limp in with one side down,
> slipped tires, broken axle, late but make it
> home.

> Tolerances for steam machinery are very
> broad and forgiving compared to diesels - a
> diesel can die due to a minor malfunction in
> one of any number of delicate electronic
> control circuits, it takes a major
> malfunction of a heavy and robust component
> to render a steam locomotive incapable of
> operation.

> If modern steam locomotives act unreliable
> it is due more to their age combined with a
> lack of existing infrastructure to keep them
> going than to any inherent mechanical
> weakness. A would venture to suggest that a
> newly built modern steam locomotive would be
> more reliable than a new diesel, although
> probably not as economical.

> dave

Dave, in the sense that your talking about, steam is certainly more tolerant of variations.

However, i was more referring to the operating characteristics,especially with regard to pulling 12 coaches up a grade that is as much as 1.8%. Keep in mind, I'm talking about a specific engine, territory and conditions.

Here's my "fer instance". I was on a trip when the 261 visited in 1995, I think there was 14-15 cars. The track was wet, leaves were on the track on the sanders crapped out. That engine slipped all the way up the hill-very nearly stalling.

As I recall, the 261 has about 64,000 lb of te, vs. 44,000 on the 2317. We're also dealing with something like 4500-5000 peak HP vs. 3000. (guessing)and a flatter power curve too.

2317 can yank 8 cars easily, 10-11 without a sweat, but make it 12 (one of which is the LV 353) and it won't go without good coal, perfect stoker and perfectly dry rail. All that can't be relied on.

With respect to the conditions you described (loosetire, broken axle) I can guarantee you that if such an event occurred, the steamer would be disconnected.

Also, the lack of existing infrastructure is part of the recipe that you have to work around-hence the diesels. As for a broken axle or loose tire, I can pretty much bet my right arm that if such a failure occurred, the engine would be removed ASAP.

Finally,after having been around the 2317, the 3254 and the 26 for several years- I'll take the 514 anyday for just about any task-the only deficiency I can see with the GP-9 is the lack of onboard refuse disposal (aka a firebox)

I guess I'm biased. I know its something like treason on here-but diesels won for a reason.



superheater@rrmail.com

> Prudence, NPS policy and NORAC Rule
> S demand safety as the primary
> consideration. You absolutely do not create
> exposures to risk that can be easily
> disposed of with a couple of rented ALCOÂ’s.

When does having the train stop become a safety risk? The ALCO's could run lite a few minutes ahead of the train to be available on short notice in case of need.

> Just as you plan to operate a boiler well
> within its tested maximum, you need to do
> the same with a high profile excursion. Wet
> rail and leaves on the track must be
> anticipated in the Poconos in the fall.
> Anywhere and anytime, you might get a load
> of coal that has a high ash content,
> creating a firebed thatÂ’s thicker than
> ideal, impairing combustion. Then theresÂ’s
> always the possibility that your stoker
> “cr*ps” out. What if there’s a tresspasser
> that requires you to stop around Gorge? How
> about a nice hot Number 2 driver bearing at
> say Analomink? Now you have hundreds of
> people tens of miles from home. These types
> of situations have to be disposed of prior
> to running the trip.

The D&S runs unescorted steam at full power every day, all summer long.

> There is NO room for error on these trips.
> Do you think the member(s) of Congress or
> other government officials are going to be
> at all accomodating to being stranded or
> delayed, let alone a train full of riders
> who experience shows about a half hour of
> tolerance for stops or delays.

Again, the D&S runs unescorted steam at full power every day, all summer long. Why can't Steamtown do it one day?

> 2317 can yank 8 cars easily, 10-11 without a
> sweat, but make it 12 (one of which is the
> LV 353) and it won't go without good coal,
> perfect stoker and perfectly dry rail. All
> that can't be relied on.

> Finally, after having been around the 2317,
> the 3254 and the 26 for several years- I'll
> take the 514 anyday.
> I guess I'm biased. I know its something
> like treason on here-but diesels won for a
> reason.

Yeah, but . . . it's called STEAM town.

If the passengers can be accomodated in 6 or 7 coaches, why must the train be 12, when the engine "won't go" with 12, without perfect conditions?

My post elsewhere here, mentions the method used by many other RR's to protect steam excursions in recent years: run the diesels ahead of the steam-train. They can even lay sand up the hill out of Scranton, to help with "dry" rail.

Yes, you don't want to have paying passengers sitting on a stopped train in the middle of no-where (even amidst the beauty of the Poconos in Autumn) for any length of time.
If a problem crops up that stops the steamer's progress, then you call the "protection diesels" to come back and couple on.

-Just my opinion as what I would do, (but then, again, the engine would be 2124)
if I was in any position of authority up there.
I'm not. I'm a spectator, and a supporter of STEAM powered trips. You can ride behind diesels almost anywhere across the USA. At least the DL brings ALCO's.

Actually, I'm disappointed to hear that the ridership was only 200 or so.
That stinks for a main-line steam trip in fall!
What was the count for the Labor-day Saturday trip? Alot more than 200 wasn't it?
Are there still tickets available for the 25th?
I will help promote the event.

>>>>Again, the D&S runs unescorted steam at full power every day, all summer long. Why can't Steamtown do it one day?

They did/do when they run the Moscow excursions.

Joshua

Homepage
joshua@joshuakblay.com

> Yeah, but . . . it's called STEAM town.

> If the passengers can be accomodated in 6 or
> 7 coaches, why must the train be 12, when
> the engine "won't go" with 12,
> without perfect conditions?

Steve, the first trip on August 30 had 500 plus.

> My post elsewhere here, mentions the method
> used by many other RR's to protect steam
> excursions in recent years: run the diesels
> ahead of the steam-train. They can even lay
> sand up the hill out of Scranton, to help
> with "dry" rail.

> Yes, you don't want to have paying
> passengers sitting on a stopped train in the
> middle of no-where (even amidst the beauty
> of the Poconos in Autumn) for any length of
> time.
> If a problem crops up that stops the
> steamer's progress, then you call the
> "protection diesels" to come back
> and couple on.

> -Just my opinion as what I would do, (but
> then, again, the engine would be 2124)
> if I was in any position of authority up
> there.
> I'm not. I'm a spectator, and a supporter of
> STEAM powered trips. You can ride behind
> diesels almost anywhere across the USA. At
> least the DL brings ALCO's.

> Actually, I'm disappointed to hear that the
> ridership was only 200 or so.
> That stinks for a main-line steam trip in
> fall!
> What was the count for the Labor-day
> Saturday trip? Alot more than 200 wasn't it?
> Are there still tickets available for the
> 25th?
> I will help promote the event.

I'm not defending the entire operation, merely the decision to use the diesels as part of the consist. If I had my way, there'd be some wholesale changes @ the place-but thats for another discussion. I personally think we'll see the 2102 run again before the 2124.

What I am defending is the decision by the operating staff to ensure that the primary objective was the guaranteed ability of the power to bring the train in and out-given the constraints imposed upon them in the form of having one high-wheeled pacific.



superheater@rrmail.com

> When does having the train stop become a
> safety risk?

When you take the extended view that your passengers will consist of many very old and many very young that may not handle an extended stop well.


superheater@rrmail.com

Perhaps I misunderstood your assertion. It seemed a universal rather than specific one to me.

> However, i was more referring to the
> operating characteristics,especially with
> regard to pulling 12 coaches up a grade that
> is as much as 1.8%.

In Colorado we called that level track.

> I guess I'm biased. I know its something
> like treason on here-but diesels won for a
> reason.

No argument here, just that the reason was economic rather than practical from a standpoint of robustness and reliability. The economic conditions still hold true, even moreso since the steam infrastructure common in the '40s is now one.

dave


irondave@bellsouth.net

> Again, the D&S runs unescorted steam at
> full power every day, all summer long. Why
> can't Steamtown do it one day?

They can. They don't. They have chosen an operating strategy for reasons they find practical and it seems to be working, mostly.

Hang on a sec while I put on my flak jacket......

Consider the differences between D&SNGRR and Steamtown. One is a private for profit business, the other is an economic development program for a dead coal town.

Proposal: NPS contracts Steamtown out to a private operator and subsidizes that operator with the same funds now spent there.

A condition of that contract can be two mainline steam locomotives and one shop goat be serviceable at all times within one year.

Applying the efficiencies impossible within the public sector, a private operator could do much more in the way of developing programming, secure in the knowledge that funding to keep the door open an the light bill paid is taken care of.

Taxpayers get the benefit of a better show in Scranton, which should attract more customers and enhance economic development, an no additional charge.

I have no fantasy that this sort of a cultural revoluton in Scranton is possible - but couldn't it work?

dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

Dave,

I have been an advocate of contracting-out Steamtown's operations since the NPS took over. It seemed like a no-brainer to me:

Let the NPS do what they do very well - interpret, and let a steam operator do what they know how to do.

Interestingly, bak in the late 1980's, there was some advocacy for a plan that would have seen RER Jr. and #614 come up to run. One of the best suggestions of that time period (I do not know who to attribute it to) was a "circle tour" that would use the former DL&W mainline and Keyser Valley Branch and essentially make a 10 mile loop around West Scranton.

Anyway, I have to say that the NPS understands their resources. To beat the heck out of #2317 would not be prudent given the scaled back shop forces and operating budget.

The D&S can do it because of what you said: they have a business to support it.

Steamtown is better compared to the CATS, where the money to keep up engines run all-out has been scarce. Look at the toll it has taken at CATS and you can see what Steamtown wants to avoid.

*NO flames please, I have the utmost respect for CATS - I am not suggesting they havge done anything wrong -- just that they have been under-funded*

So where are the Jack Showalters and George Hart's of the 2000's who will bring steam to town and make a go of it? Mr. Jacobsen, Scranton is a pretty neat city and a day's drive from Ohio! :-)

Rob



trains@robertjohndavis.com

The questions about the hows and whys of the Water Gap trips are interesting, but beyond my technical knowledge to debate.

What is more troubling to me is the (very) slim schedule for 2004. I assume that most members of the general public don't make reservations, they just show up and expect a train ride. Next year they will show up and there won't be a train ride or it will be to a special destination (and sold out). They can ride the Electric City museums trolley ride, which I highly recommend, but that seems not to support Steamtown other than "saving" a visitor from a no train trip visit.

What is the possibility of others working with the D-L and running diesel trips on some of these weekends when Steamtown is not running? I know that the D-L did their DL&W 150th Anniversary trips in 2001 which were not associated with Steamtown. I would think a simple (relatively) low cost diesel excursion would give the general public what they are looking for - a chance to experience a "real" train ride.

Fellow Enthusiasts

The reason that the Steamtown DWA trips have diesel power in the train is, to reduce the amount of wear and tear on Steamtown's ONLY operating steam locomotive, 2317. They do not want to risk breaking somthing major on this locomotive, leaving Steamtown, well, "steamless" for the rest of the operating season. This situation may change in the future as the 3254 is brought back into service and with the completion of the 3713, which is now being worked on everyday by a crew of 4 full time mechanics

Bruce



trainhead@mymail.emcyber.com

Bruce, I must say that really does make the most sense. Hopefully with more than 1 operating steam engine they would be willing to max out an engine for a good show. But you're right until then why risk failing a part and then leaving the remaining trips "steamless".