The Mgr. of the local branch line recently saved from abandonment and salvage, has asked me to look into an engine heater for one of their old diesel locomotives. I am a steam person so this is not in my usual realm. The problem is that we are located in an area with the potential of freezing at night early Oct. through mid May. Can anyone enlighten me on what is out there commercially to keep an engine such as an SD35? or similar heated so it can be shut down in freezing weather. I'd guess there must be other tourist and shortline operators who face this problem, where the engine is typically only active 1 or 2 days per week.

http://www.svry.com
jamesbane@hotmail.com

Try Kim Hotstart. Their web site is http://www.kimhotstart.com/ They're located up in Spokane, WA and have a couple of different units designed for locomotives.

> The Mgr. of the local branch line recently
> saved from abandonment and salvage, has
> asked me to look into an engine heater for
> one of their old diesel locomotives. I am a
> steam person so this is not in my usual
> realm. The problem is that we are located in
> an area with the potential of freezing at
> night early Oct. through mid May. Can anyone
> enlighten me on what is out there
> commercially to keep an engine such as an
> SD35? or similar heated so it can be shut
> down in freezing weather. I'd guess there
> must be other tourist and shortline
> operators who face this problem, where the
> engine is typically only active 1 or 2 days
> per week.


http://www.trainmuseum.org
rra@trainmuseum.org

We used to buy the commercial standby heaters, but now we just make our own using a regular hot water heater and a circulating pump. Be sure the cab heater is getting hot water because that is usually the first thing to freeze up. We put anti-freeze in the cooling system during the winter months just in case of a power failure that would shut down the heating system. If you use anti-freeze, be sure the engine block is tight with no leaks and check it frequently. An alternative to anti-freeze is to install dump valves that automatically drain the system if the heater fails and temperatures approach freezing.

Alan Maples
Everett Railroad

AMaples@aol.com

Commecially-available layover heaters are very expensive, both in first cost and in operating cost. Many require three-phase power, not always available in rural areas. Several shortlines I know of have built their own heaters using hot-water heater elements, hot-tub pumps, etc. to heat and circulate the cooling water using 220 or even 110 power. If the loco has an EMD C-block engine, anti-freeze is a possibility as well. Using anti-freeze in the block, one would probably need a lube-oil heater system. You do need one or the other if you want your engine to start. I'd also recommend automatic dump valves, just in case something goes wrong with the block heater.

K4s1361@hotmail.com

Something very important to remember is that simply sticking space heaters under the hood is not going to be effective and could lead to a fire.

It is also very important to identify any dead-end pipe or components and find a way to allow the heated water to flow through them. If they do not have some sort of flow they will freeze and break. Last a dump valve will protect your block when power is lost. Some places have even tied the heater or block temperature into a central monitored security system that will call someone if there is trouble.

Tom Gears

Also, if I recall correctly, the antifreeze recommended for large diesels is not same propylene glycol used in your car or truck.

Also look at some of the self contained units that use a small diesel to generate heat and electricity. keeps the battries charged allong with other options. much eaiser on the starter than systems like smartstart. also you can leave it anywhere and not worry about having power, and you have an onboard gen for service in the sticks

pfdx@aol.com

Talking about antifreeze, I have heard from old timers that you do not use antifreeze (automobile type) in EMC/D engines 567-A block in particular.
Is there a safe solution to use? Would you use it in conjunction with a heater.

If the engine is going to be inactive over the winter months, is draining a safe way to go?

Thanks
Bruce Pierce

> The Mgr. of the local branch line recently
> saved from abandonment and salvage, has
> asked me to look into an engine heater for
> one of their old diesel locomotives. I am a
> steam person so this is not in my usual
> realm. The problem is that we are located in
> an area with the potential of freezing at
> night early Oct. through mid May. Can anyone
> enlighten me on what is out there
> commercially to keep an engine such as an
> SD35? or similar heated so it can be shut
> down in freezing weather. I'd guess there
> must be other tourist and shortline
> operators who face this problem, where the
> engine is typically only active 1 or 2 days
> per week.


http://www.midsouthrail.org
brucepierce@frankelectro.com

EMD 567-A and -B blocks had a poor water seal arrangement and are more prone to leaking than a 567-C. Anti-freeze tends to open up any leaks that you may have. If the engine is tight - no leaks - you are probably OK, but you do need to check the water glass and oil sump regularly to be sure it stays that way.

We did have one that leaked enough that we simply parked and drained it every winter. The problem with draining the locomotive is the potential for rust to form internally, and it is the rust flakes getting under the O-rings that can cause the leaks. Use of proper water treatment (rust inhibitor) will go a long way toward preventing leak problems.

Keeping the locomotive parked in a warm enginehouse is the best solution of all, albeit the most costly.

I am not a mechanic and by no means an expert on engines, so I am only passing along what little I've learned from experience.

Alan Maples

AMaples@aol.com

> Talking about antifreeze, I have heard from
> old timers that you do not use antifreeze
> (automobile type) in EMC/D engines 567-A
> block in particular.
> Is there a safe solution to use? Would you
> use it in conjunction with a heater.

Folks can correct me if I'm wrong but, NO antifreeze in an "A" block, sometimes in a "B" block if the power assemblies have new O-rings and regular automotive antifreeze has been used in "C" blocks.

> If the engine is going to be inactive over
> the winter months, is draining a safe way to
> go?

When in doubt, drain the darn thing, water is a lot cheaper then a new engine.

Has anyone looked at oil pan heaters and their ability to keep the whole engine above freezing, again your water lines must be able to thermosiphon for this to work.

It sure is nice to have engines that can use antifreeze ...always keep a couple of these in your hip pocket for winter.


lamontdc@adelphia.net

Depending on what the conditions surrounding the locomotive, you need to make sure you have the right system. I mean no disrespect to those who have custom built their own locomotive heater and circulators, because I am sure that many of them work just fine if not better than what is commercially available. On the other side of the same coin, how much are you willing to risk on a "homemade" system. Once mother nature overtakes the heating system, alot of money is wasted. Sometimes enough to justify scrapping the locomotive.

Another thing to remember is that your not just looking for a block heater. There is water in the extremities of the locomotive that must be heated too. Examples are the air compressor (if water cooled), heat exchanger, waterpumps, piping, radiators, cab heaters and lines, etc.

I would advise against a heating system that does not have a circulation pump (and a good sized one at that). Any system that you install needs to be able to move as much water and provide as much heat as the engine would normally do in run 2 or 3. You could get away with an "idle" like setting if you were in a warmer climate where hard freezes are not common. Don't forget the auto drain valves. If the weather is bad enough to kill the power, the locomotive may be inaccessable too.

I would definately look at an oil heater and circulator, too. If you do it right, you can use it as a prelube pump, even in the summer. This would help all of your bearings survive longer. A definite plus.

Kim Hotstart has all of the above in a package, including installation. Other companyies may be able to help you too.

Bottom line, EMD's were not meant to be shut down.

Good luck!

Ryan

lima709@aol.com

Once mother
> nature overtakes the heating system, alot of
> money is wasted. Sometimes enough to justify
> scrapping the locomotive.

If I remember correctly, our policy was to plug the heater in if the overnight temperature was expected to be below 40 degress. If the temperature was expected to go much below 20 degrees, we cranked the unit and let it idle instead. The more powerful heating units can really spin the electric meter, so idling was not that much more expensive.

Alan Maples

AMaples@aol.com

This is what I have used for 18 years in South Dakota without an enginehouse on four EMD's with C blocks, one Alco C-420 and a GE 70-tonner.

First, protect the block with anti-freeze. I use methanol (a Model T solution, but a leak won't effect bearings). Methanol boils at a relatively low temperature, but seems to condense in the radiators. Rarely have to add water. I use a hydrometer to check specific gravity and a chart from a chemical handbook from the local library which shows the level of protection. Standard mix is 50% methanol/50% water.

Do not mix methanol with glycol antifreezes. You get green jello.

I don't worry about cold blocks and it gets below -30 on occasion. (see above) When we have to start a really cold engine, we start the night before. A stock tank heater from the local farm supply store gets pitched into the lube oil in the crankcase. Fortunately the diameter of an inspection cover is a little larger than the heating unit. Stock tank heaters are designed to sit in the bottom of a water trough for livestock and keep the water above freezing. Inexpensive and run on 110. We heat the oil cooler separately with a portable forced air heater (Nipco or whatever they are called in your area) that runs off 110 and burns kerosene or propane. The heater is put inside the carbody with the heat directed toward the oil cooler. You have to keep sufficient distance from anything oily that you don't start a fire.

With warm oil and a decent set of batteries, even a very cold block will start right up. In very cold weather, a bad cell in a battery tray will likely freeze and split the case. A good reason to take readings on each cell and practice good battery maintenance.

When temperatures are headed for zero, we switch to #1 Diesel fuel as #2 will gel. The fuel pump can't push the gel through the fuel filters and the pump motor will burn up. More modern locomotives (and trucks) have heated fuel tanks.

I really beat the drum about methanol. Plug in heating systems are fine, but they don't work if the power supply fails.



dsrc512@sd.value.net

We put two homemade water heating systems in older Alco switchers with good results.

A heating, ventilating, and air conditioning supplier (such as Johnstone Supply)can sell to you a Chromalox commercial heating element. Our were 220 three phase. The heating element has pipe threads on the top end allowing the use of a large pipe and bell reducers to make the tank.We also put in centrifugal pumps just downstream of the heaters to force the hot water everywhere (cab heater, radiators).

Our control system consisted of a thermostat for ambient air temperature, set to close about 36 degrees if there was a clear night. This thremostat closed the motor switch and the heater switch. We also put a thermostat on the hot water tank so it would shut-off at about 130 degrees (which helped save electricity). There was also an override switch to turn the system on at above 36 degrees for pre-heating the engine for an easier start in cold weather.

The most significant problem we had was when people would unplug the power cord from the locomotive while the heater was running, producing arcing that destroyed the plug and socket, causing the system to fail the next time it was plugged in without the damage being detected.

The pump ran on 220 three-phase also to avoid needing a extra 110 volt wires in the power cord.

If someone were near the locomotive on freezing nights, a fail-safe alarm could sound controled by the heating system power if it failed. An alarm working on 74 volts DC would activate even if the AC power failed.

steamrr@mashell.com

Alex,
Very good advice!
I don't start at 30 below and require ethanol for assistance.
At those temperatures even a good set of batteries loses a lot of power ...there are some interesting tables out there on that effect.
I like the idea of a stock tank heater for the oil, warm oil goes a long way towards getting that cold engine to roll.


lamontdc@adelphia.net

Yet another suggestion is to purchase a domestic heating boiler/circ pump and pipe it into the engine cooling system. For this type of use, I would say that an inexpensive (steel) boiler would be a better choice than cast iron.

The advantage is this approach is (relatively) low first cost compared to something like KIM Hot Start. The boiler can run off of a 115V, 15A circuit. 220V, 3 phase is not always available and getting the power company to bring it in to a location can be expensive.

Controls can as simple as an on-off switch to turn the unit on with the boilers' own limit switch shutting the unit off.

Of course, there are number of challenges to overcome. The first is locating the boiler. In a road locomotive, the obviousl place is the short nose. The second issue is hooking up the burner fuel supply to the loco itself. The engine fuel pump dip tube is the obvious place to start.

The third, as perhaps the problem that looms the largest, is how to set up the piping. If not done correctly, there will be "dead spots" and things like the water-cooled air compressor (if so equipped) will be the first to freeze. Given that the water pump (two if we're talking about an EMD) are the largest impediments to flow, it may be a good idea to set things up so the boiler pumps opposite to the normal flow of the cooling system.

One disclaimer, if we are talking about an Alco road-switcher with vertical panel radiators, I would not recommend this approach. Have seen freeze damage on these things that happened with the engine running.

Lazlo

locoeng@verizon.net