Back in the day, a locomotive could be torn down and rebuilt in a day in some big shops. These days, restoration efforts are often measured in years. Is this just because such efforts are "spare time" work done by fewer workers? Or are we doing things differently today?

Assuming you have a full-time staff of 4 who are working on one locomotive for 40 hours a week, how long should it take to do a rebuild? Let's say the rebuild includes new bearings all around, new tubes, new tires, and re-timing and that the engine is a small to medium-sized loco with no trailing truck, say a ten-wheeler or consol.

The South Carolina Railroad Museum
mconrad@msmgmt.com

> These days, restoration efforts are often
> measured in years. Is this just because such
> efforts are "spare time" work done
> by fewer workers? Or are we doing things
> differently today?

Well, one thing that is different is that instead of having an on-site parts inventory, air brake shop, blacksmith shop, foundry, etc. and so forth, all separately staffed and ready to support and supply the assembly/disassembly crew on ole No. 40 with whatever they need, now we have to get all the parts and materials from outsource vendors.

So you need flues--how long to collect bids, order, get delivered? When can TVRM's shop accomodate your drivers in their schdule? When can Bernie Watts deliver your rebuilt cross-compund compressor components?

I suspect it's this network of off-site and third-party suppliers, not the work itself, that packs most of the time into the schedule.

eledbetter@rypn.org

Matt;

Over the years I have been keeping some kind of track of the number of hours to repair a steam locomotive, as is done by volunteers.

One main thought, echoed many times by the experienced on this board, is that, when choosing a locomotive, you MUST

a) have a very good look at the locomotive before committing anything; ie, determine if the locomotive is a basket case or not;

b) have funding, and a means of raising funds with it at the end,

c) have a good plan in place for the restoration and eventual running (ie, recouping some investment and future maintenance costs).

Here are notes on two that I remember; (my files are at home)

50,000 hours; (Large soo locomotive? read older issues of LRP to find out exact locomotive number);

25,000 hours volunteer + paid staff for a 2-8-0 out in the midwest USA.

I know others here have direct experience, and will chime in. There is a lot of good experience with members of this board.

50,000 hours is about 25 man-years of effort.So, with your crew, you are looking at just over 6 years of effort.

The numbers are big; that's why it would take "a bunch of guys" working Saturday mornings, 20 years to do a little 0-4-0, and why so many volunteer projects get half way before the volunteers die off, or just decide that winters in Florida are better than at home. :-|

John Stewart
Ottawa, Canada.

> Assuming you have a full-time staff of 4 who
> are working on one locomotive for 40 hours a
> week, how long should it take to do a
> rebuild?

freewrl-1@rogers.com

> Assuming you have a full-time staff of 4 who
> are working on one locomotive for 40 hours a
> week, how long should it take to do a
> rebuild? Let's say the rebuild includes new
> bearings all around, new tubes, new tires,
> and re-timing and that the engine is a small
> to medium-sized loco with no trailing truck,
> say a ten-wheeler or consol.

The correct answer is, "It depends."

There is a cute sign in my local mechanics garage that reads something like this:

You can choose any two of the following:

1. A fast job.
2. A good job.
3. A cheap job.

A good and cheap job isn't a fast job.
A good and fast job isn't cheap.
A cheap and fast job isn't good.

I served on the battleship USS New Jersey back in the mid '80s. One of the problems of maintaining a 45 year old ship which I'm sure is a problem common with steam locos is that while you are trying to complete a job, you discover that you need an unusual sized left handed wing nut which is not at hand. After several weeks of searching, it is discovered that they are no longer manufactured and none exist. So then you have to decide if you want to try to substitute something else modern or have someone make the left handed wing nut from scratch. Machine work is is fairly straight forward, assuming that one can lay hands on the blue prints. But when you don't have the prints and start dealing with fluid flows, there's a bunch of engineering needed to decide which modern substitute will work.

Ed

ff1044@aol.com

I would say that size of the engine is not as big a factor as one might think, within reason anyway. Condition and how it was stored are probably more of a factor.

But do agree, based on our current experience, that suppliers are a major hold up. One is just finding someone to supply what you need, then the normal ordering process. It took us months to get rivets for example which met code. Our new flue sheet had a very tight radius which made it difficult to find anyone to do it. Axle journal refinishing took months as well. The above are three items we did not expect to get into but which added a year to the project. I am not being critical of the suppliers. They all did a great job but in this day and age, it just takes time to get the things we need to finish the job.

J.R.
> Back in the day, a locomotive could be torn
> down and rebuilt in a day in some big shops.
> These days, restoration efforts are often
> measured in years. Is this just because such
> efforts are "spare time" work done
> by fewer workers? Or are we doing things
> differently today?

> Assuming you have a full-time staff of 4 who
> are working on one locomotive for 40 hours a
> week, how long should it take to do a
> rebuild? Let's say the rebuild includes new
> bearings all around, new tubes, new tires,
> and re-timing and that the engine is a small
> to medium-sized loco with no trailing truck,
> say a ten-wheeler or consol.


http://www,njmt.org
jrmay@njmt.org

A couple of other things to consider is that in the steam days crews were working on the same types of engines continuously. They had learned a lot of tricks to improve job efficiency. Once you've torn down and put back together the same running gear for the fiftieth time, you have it down pretty well. Everything goes much faster.
Along with that, the railroad people were working with engines that had not deteriorated. The engines, for the most part, were not 60 to 90 years old. They didn't have the associated problems that come with age and severe corrosion except in the case of poor water treatment and such.
And, the railroads seldom kept their locomotives in the same good condition as operators today do. In the days of yore, it was often the rule that if it could make enough steam to pull the train, it was good enough to go. I've read stories about running gear so loose you wouldn't dare even pull the thing DIT today, but the engine would be out there earning revenue for the railroad.
Also, things like staybolts... The methods of replacing them were often not quite as "proper" as the way most people do it these days. Todays engines are really pampered little queens rather than the work horses of yesteryear. Thus, it takes more time to do the work. Like the man said above, fast and cheap, fast and good, or other combinations, but not all three.
Mark D.

A lot of these responses relate to outside suppliers. I've compiled a list of contact information for every significant steam parts/services supplier I could find. Please check it out at the link below.

Many of these listings have come from readers who e-mailed me. If you know of any suppliers I haven't listed, please let me know and I'll be glad to add them. If you know of people who are looking for steam parts, supplies, or services, please refer them to this page. There may be someone out there who has exactly what you need.

I have no personal or financial interest in any of these suppliers.

Good Steaming,
Hugh Odom

> Back in the day, a locomotive could be torn
> down and rebuilt in a day in some big shops.
> These days, restoration efforts are often
> measured in years. Is this just because such
> efforts are "spare time" work done
> by fewer workers? Or are we doing things
> differently today?

> Assuming you have a full-time staff of 4 who
> are working on one locomotive for 40 hours a
> week, how long should it take to do a
> rebuild? Let's say the rebuild includes new
> bearings all around, new tubes, new tires,
> and re-timing and that the engine is a small
> to medium-sized loco with no trailing truck,
> say a ten-wheeler or consol.


The Ultimate Steam Page Steam Repair Links
whodom2001@yahoo.com

I have been reading this site since it first started and two items strike me as important.

Just about everything that needs to be done to a steam loco is a custom job these days. It is not like the yellow pages are full of machines shops, or even railroad shops that are under the heading steam engine repairs.

The Colorado Railroad Museum has an engine in Strasburg PA, to get overhauled. Now that is time and distance.

Volunteers have one day a week to give, Saturday is usually it. So even if you are lucky enough to have Shop facilities to work in, they sit empty most of the time.

The WW&F has had to build a shop in order to overhaul their tiny, 12 tons? engine an dit is taking way longer than expected. End result is an almost new locomotive, but what a cost and most of the labor is donated.

Yes steam is a past glory, and to run it today is one of the greatest challenges in preservation!

ted_miles@nps.gov

In the past if a locomotive was found with a solid firebox it was clean up, retubed, given minor repairs and put out for weekend tourist trips. The changes to the rules coupled with the fact many of the engines laying around with good fireboxes have been used up has lead to more in depth restorations being done.

Places that run everyday have always had to rebuild to a higher standard but places that operate one day per week could get away with limited restorations.

The man hours go way up if you start doing a firebox as compared to just a retube.

Also think about the effort you can put into something like a tender. If you have one the holds water it might just be cleaned and painted. If you go all out you can sandblast the water side and cover everything with fiberglass. The later is much more costly but will make it last much longer.

Tom Gears

How many other locomotives does your organization operate and maintain? Maintaining the current equipment so that you have cash flow often diverts a great deal of your restoration and shop crew's time and effort. If you're short of volunteers for operating the revenue trains, you sometimes have to put your shop crew on the train. That further reduces their availability for repair or restoration efforts.

It's also been hinted at in some of the previous responses, but when you start work on a restoration project, expect the unexpected... and expect the news to get worse.

As the years go by... the standards (requirements) for restoration work have become more stringent at the same time that the source materials have deteriorated.

brianf425@yahoo.com

OTOH, we now have standards and practices which are more real-world based than those of 3 years ago.

Sources do exist for the most commonly replaced components, albiet far fewer than in previous eons.

So, taking a practical look at the potential for SCRM 44:

No good survey - do that first.

No shop facility - quadruple required time.

No steam experienced local talent - quadruple required money.

Local ASME boiler shop?

Local machine shop with BIG tools?

Local source of very deep pockets?

Talk to the NHVRR guys.

Dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

Long enough to do it right so you get a full 15 years of operations for your time and money.

http://nctrans.org
Wrinnbo@aol.com

Good point on the loosing the shop crew to the revenue operation. This is our busiest time of year with the Halloween Express, Fall Foliage runs, and then the Christmas Express. All are labor intensive and the shop crew must be pulled to help out the regular revenue train crew. The special runs alone probably account for 15,000 riders and at a premium price too.

> How many other locomotives does your
> organization operate and maintain?
> Maintaining the current equipment so that
> you have cash flow often diverts a great
> deal of your restoration and shop crew's
> time and effort. If you're short of
> volunteers for operating the revenue trains,
> you sometimes have to put your shop crew on
> the train. That further reduces their
> availability for repair or restoration
> efforts.

> It's also been hinted at in some of the
> previous responses, but when you start work
> on a restoration project, expect the
> unexpected... and expect the news to get
> worse.

> As the years go by... the standards
> (requirements) for restoration work have
> become more stringent at the same time that
> the source materials have deteriorated.


http://www,njmt.org
jrmay@njmt.org

You got that right! When our little mogul is done, it should be like a new locomotive and not require over haul for at least 15 years. However, it will need its 5 year inspection called for under Ape C that we operate under.

And yes, if we did not have our own R-Stamp, this project would have been impossible for us.

> Long enough to do it right so you get a full
> 15 years of operations for your time and
> money.


http://www,njmt.org
jrmay@njmt.org

> A lot of these responses relate to outside
> suppliers. I've compiled a list of contact
> information for every significant steam
> parts/services supplier I could find. Please
> check it out at the link below.

> Many of these listings have come from
> readers who e-mailed me. If you know of any
> suppliers I haven't listed, please let me
> know and I'll be glad to add them. If you
> know of people who are looking for steam
> parts, supplies, or services, please refer
> them to this page. There may be someone out
> there who has exactly what you need.

> I have no personal or financial interest in
> any of these suppliers.

> Good Steaming,
> Hugh Odom

Please don't consider this an advertisement, because I'm not trying to earn any kind of profit from what I'm about to "say."
In my own shop here, I've fabricated a number of replacement steam locomotive parts, from special fasteners to steam valve stems.
I am willing to talk to people who have a specific need for a specific hard, or impossible, to find part. I can't always do whatever task might come up, and I also can't always do it for free, but I also don't charge for profit.
Rebuilders and operators might want to consider Minnesota Machine and Press, Inc. as a possible source for smaller sized machined parts that aren't easily available. I try to help any way I can.
I've also done some interesting things with Prime/Alemite pneumatic grease guns.
Contact is mnmach@lakes.com
Mark D.