Memo to the Convention Committees of the NRHS, R&LHS and RRE:

RE: 2006 Joint Convention in Northern and Central Ohio

As of this past week the NRHS still does not have a bid from a chapter to host the '06 convention. There is also a move afoot to have the National Convention Committee take over the operation and financial risks of the conventions. There is precedent for this, the National has run conventions in the past when no chapter was willing or able to do so.

Not knowing what the R&LHS or RRE are planning, but taking a shot in the dark (and with some encouragement from a few others) I propose a joint convention of about 5 days (not counting inbound special) with it's geographic center around Canton, Oh.

This may be the only area East of the Mississippi where we can have a convention featuring a significant amount of steam, as well as rare diesels, and with the excursion infrastructure and railroad cooperation to make it happen. Let's look at a sample schedule for such a convention:

Tuesday: Inbound convention special. Rook Yard (Pittsburgh) via W&LE and OHCR, with steam at least on the OHCR portion, to Coshocton, Oh.

Wednesday: Charter on the all Alco Cuyahoga Valley Scenic RR, Independence, Oh.(just S. of Cleveland) to Canton. Time for runby's at several locations in the scenic Cuyahoga Valley National Park between Cleveland and Akron.

Thursday: Seminar Day and Banquet, Possible kenote speaker, Ohio Central Pres. Jerry Jacobson.

Friday: Circle excursion on the W&LE and AC&Y in cooperation with the Orrville Ry. Hist. Society. Brewster - Canton - Mogadore - Spencer - Brewster.

Saturday: First of two days on the Ohio Central. Steam powered excursion out of Sugar Creek, first North for really rare mileage, then South to Morgan run. Opportunities for several runbys, and a really great Amish catered lunch.

Sunday: Steam Powered excursion with ex-GTW 4-8-4 #6325 from Dennison, Oh. to near Columbus. Return with historic diesels. Opportunities for at least a couple of HIGH SPEED runbys. (Just ask anyone on the Ohio Central Photographer's Special last weekend.)

Everything I have proposed is doable and has been done. I believe there would be enough help from those of us who have worked on recent conventions in the past few years, and, like me, have Ohio connections. Many of the folks at the CVSR are railfans themselves, and are also open to the possibility of having steam run on the line. The Wheeling has a good working relationship with the Orrville group, and runs a series of trips for them every year.

All of the elements for a great convention with major steam excursions are there if the National will step in and take the lead. Comments?

pww57@hotmail.com

> Comments?

If you have some free time you might want to include a trip to Wellington, OH. on WLE.


http://www.lakeshorerailway.org/
lamontdc@adelphia.net

Hi Paul,

Thank you for presenting a well thought out case for an Ohio NRHS national convention.

In addition to the railroads and engines that you cited, there is a good chance that visiting locomotives could be brought in. 765 is close by and the 765 folks have a good working relationship with the Ohio Central. The 261 crew are not averse to traveling, assuming that an economic case can be made for doing so.

How about a mid-western Rail Fair in conjunction with the NRHS convention?

trainrider47@aol.com

Mike;

The thought had crossed my mind about other engines, and excursion possibilities. I didn't want to get bogged down with a very lengthy proposal, just something to get folks thinking. For that matter, how about a Brewster - Toledo W&LE trip, as well as a Shaker Rapid tour for the traction fans? The main point is that if the national leadership of the organizations I mentioned are interested, there are enough things to do that would fill a reasonable and affordable convention. It sure would be good to see the Berk on Ohio rails again, and hey, the 1225 is also close, maybe we could do a replay of the side-by-side running at the '91 Huntington Convention?

It has long been one of my flights of fancy to see one last big steam shindig before the future catches up with us for good. The fact that the NRHS is without a 2006 convention bid only 2 1/2 years out opens up the chance for something unique and innovative, but time is running short.

> Hi Paul,

> Thank you for presenting a well thought out
> case for an Ohio NRHS national convention.

> In addition to the railroads and engines
> that you cited, there is a good chance that
> visiting locomotives could be brought in.
> 765 is close by and the 765 folks have a
> good working relationship with the Ohio
> Central. The 261 crew are not averse to
> traveling, assuming that an economic case
> can be made for doing so.

> How about a mid-western Rail Fair in
> conjunction with the NRHS convention?


pww57@hotmail.com

I think the NRHS Convention situation points out a more important issue - the fact that the NRHS National organization is, in general, out of touch. I attended an NRHS national meeting this spring and you would think the Southern steam program were alive and well! Guys, those days are over forever and the Fantrip model of the 1970's is driving the NRHS to irrelevance. The NRHS needs to have a higher purpose than "playing trains". Their historic grant program is a start, but it appears to be an afterthought rather than a main focus. Currently the only growing NRHS chapter is the O&W Chapter in Middletown, NY. Why? Because they focus on historic preservation (a necessity when the railroad you focus on has been gone for 45 years). Senior management at NRHS has been trying to grab members away from R&LHS and the remnants of the RRE like they were WalMart beating on K Mart and Sears. This is an odd behavior and explains why NRHS membership is on a 15 year decline while other more preservation oriented groups are holding their own or growing.

While I have more than a few bones to pick with the leadership of the NRHS (I think a generational change in leadership is necessary in the near future), there is still the need to carry on with the tradition of an annual national convention. I had hoped to get the powers that be to consider a venue that cannot be hosted alone by one of the local chapters, but that would afford the membership of the NRHS, as well as possibly the R&LHS and RRE the chance to hold a gathering much like some of the best of the last 20 years, just one more time.

There have been other attempts to open the discussion on the future of national railfan organizations on this forum, and there should and will be others in the future. However, I really want to keep this thread focused on the possibility of a Northern Ohio based convention in '06. I see that my original post has been read well over 200 times and I hope that at least some of those readers are connected with the leadership of these organizations and will think about the potential for a great convention there.

> I think the NRHS Convention situation points
> out a more important issue - the fact that
> the NRHS National organization is, in
> general, out of touch. I attended an NRHS
> national meeting this spring and you would
> think the Southern steam program were alive
> and well! Guys, those days are over forever
> and the Fantrip model of the 1970's is
> driving the NRHS to irrelevance. The NRHS
> needs to have a higher purpose than
> "playing trains". Their historic
> grant program is a start, but it appears to
> be an afterthought rather than a main focus.
> Currently the only growing NRHS chapter is
> the O&W Chapter in Middletown, NY. Why?
> Because they focus on historic preservation
> (a necessity when the railroad you focus on
> has been gone for 45 years). Senior
> management at NRHS has been trying to grab
> members away from R&LHS and the remnants
> of the RRE like they were WalMart beating on
> K Mart and Sears. This is an odd behavior
> and explains why NRHS membership is on a 15
> year decline while other more preservation
> oriented groups are holding their own or
> growing.


pww57@hotmail.com

> While I have more than a few bones to pick
> with the leadership of the NRHS (I think a
> generational change in leadership is
> necessary in the near future), there is
> still the need to carry on with the
> tradition of an annual national convention.
> I had hoped to get the powers that be to
> consider a venue that cannot be hosted alone
> by one of the local chapters, but that would
> afford the membership of the NRHS, as well
> as possibly the R&LHS and RRE the chance
> to hold a gathering much like some of the
> best of the last 20 years, just one more
> time.

> However, I really want to keep this thread
> focused on the possibility of a Northern
> Ohio based convention in '06. I see that my
> original post has been read well over 200
> times and I hope that at least some of those
> readers are connected with the leadership of
> these organizations and will think about the
> potential for a great convention there.

The first thing that has to be decided by the leadership of the groups (and don't think for a moment that the topic hasn't been a hot item of discussion with them) is whether the traditional, multi-trip, multi-engine, multi-railroad convention has a future at all. Here's why:

Traditional conventions have become hugely expensive, both for the sponsoring organizations and the attendees. This isn't 1990; all costs associated with such things, from insurance to hotels; from engine operating costs to passenger car rental; from fuel to meals; from deadhead equipment placement moves to (fill in the blank) have not simply grown - they have skyrocketed. Throw in the fact that few railroads want to deal with these kind of big disruptions any more, and you end up with a convention package that must be priced far beyond the reach of the average fan.

This isn't new; it began a number of years ago, and it's had an effect on recent conventions, large and small. Attendance numbers on the surface sometimes look impressive, but when you crunch the numbers you find that few attendees ride more than one trip; some don't ride any. They don't sign up for seminars, don't stay at the desginated hotels, etc. All of this raises the price for those who do pay for these things.

It has reached a point where a fan who decides to attend a convention with, say, 3 different trips, a photo session, some seminars, a banquet, shop tours, and a swap meet is looking at $1,500 or more just for the convention. This doesn't count the cost of getting to and from the venue. Juat take the average convention brochure from the past 5 or 6 years and add up all the prices. And even with all that, most conventions barely break even; some lose money.

It has reached a cost point where many NRHS members don't even sign up for a convention. They go to the host city, stay in a cheaper hotel, don't pay the sign-up fee, chase the trips, skip the organized, non-trip events, try to sneak into the photo sessions and tours, then go home and complain about the cost and how hard it is to do anything. Meanwhile, the convention sponsor is left holding the bag for hotel and event guarantee prices and so forth.

Have you explored your idea with the organizations? Have you contacted the railroads? OC shouldn't be a problem, but W&LE might be, not to mention the roads that would have to host deadhead moves to and from to get some of the other engines to the event. Have you looked at hotels and insurance costs and the zillions of other things that go into such an event?

Not to discourage you, but if it was as easy as some think, and if it was a "sure thing," thing there would be huge conventions every year. Maybe even more than one a year.

Personally, I think the annual convention with a big steam presence (measured in number of locomotives and number of trips and events) is pretty much dead, and the sooner the foamers and the leadership of the organizations understands that, the better. A big event every 3 or 5 years or so might still stand a chance. But trying to outdo the previous year or years - every year - doesn't work any longer.

The changes in railroads, in the memberships, in financial realities and in attitudes have overwhelmed the traditional annual big foamfest. It's time to come up with something new, or just fade away.

I hate to say how much I agree with someone who hides behind a pseudonym, but he's hit the nail on the head again.

There is yet an inherent problem, however: The enthusiasts often seem painfully oblivious to such things as history seminars. It's a very real case that you have to almost PAY people to attend what looks like a college lecture. Realistically, you can't force people to listen to the opera or watch ballet in order to get to their chosen dessert of rock music and TV sitcoms.

There is another type of event that gets far away from the traditional rail excursion, however. During the 1995 Convention, my friend and I hosted a bus trip to the remnants of the Mt. Gretna Narrow Gauge RR near Lebanon, Pa. This was not simply a seminar--we took the trouble to include the line's premier historian, a visit to the town and its Victorian elegance, a presentation in a Victorian parlour surrounded by hands-on artifacts and a live-steam model of a loco of the line, a hike up the right-of-way to the observation tower that was the line's original destination, a souvenir spike from the RR to each participant, lunch at a town ice-cream parlor, and even (by complete chance and surprise, even my own) a visit to Manheim, Pa. to a station museum and (even more surprise) rolling out Congestoga Traction 236, the streetcar that can basically be called the founding nucleus of what became the NRHS, for photos. Everyone on that trip rated it exceedingly highly, but only 18 could muster the curiosity to try it.

I just came home from a week in Arizona, much of which I spent bouncing over abandoned rail rights-of-way in Jeeps being driven by native 4WD nuts that have now become infected with railfanning, thanks to my gift of books covering the local railroads. Even out of context, such a trip can be fascinating; properly placed in context (Sierra RR #3 started its life on these very rights-of-way; Videos of Santa Fe steam on the line; "Look, we can match the exact angle of that photo if we get a chain-saw!"), it becomes as compelling as 3751, 4960, or Alcos on the Grand Canyon RR (Gunfights? We don't need no steenkin' gunfights!). How the heck did a railroad get all the way up to Jerome? And WHY?

I'm getting to the point where I do believe the "perfect" rail excursion would be a blend of "beefed-up" regular operations (think a trip to any excursion railroad as done by Carl Franz or David Goodheart) and efforts to place the greater destination in context. Sure, give me 261 in Minneapolis in 2004--but also give me a tour of iron-ore railroads, of timber railroading, and what the Twin Cities meant in railroading in general!

I've been to central Ohio. It's lacking a lot in accommodations and general railfan comforts (remember, a LOT of NRHS packages do cater big-time to "first-class", which sells out first). But certainly the ideas need to be hashed out and played with. Let's just pray that we don't plan big-time and then have the OC shut down by new FRA regs or a terrorist attack or whatever bad luck!



LNER4472-NOSPAM-@bcpl.net

It's not that I'm unaware of the problems of putting on a national convention - I was volunteering somewhere everyday of the Baltimore convention this year. One of my reasons for proposing N. Ohio for a convention was the chance to do it with the lower costs of a less than major metropolitan area. I've sounded this idea out with a few folks in the know, and they like it. I realize lodging might be a problem. We'll probably use up all of the available hotel/motel rooms in the region the week of the event. That does have some advantages, however. In Baltimore, this year's convention was an also-ran in terms of events in town that week. In a smaller venue, the community is more likely to roll out the red carpet for a group of 1,200 or so. The '91 Huntington convention got quite a bit of play in the local media, and it seemed like the locals were glad to have us there. I think that would also be the case for Ohio.

As for what might happen with liability and insurance problems and changes in operating policy - who knows? In early 1993 I don't think anyone could have forseen the Sunset Ltd. wreck and the cascading effects it would have on the hobby and excursions. As of right now it is not easy to put on a show like this, but I have used examples of operations that are probaly aminable to doing a convention.

> The first thing that has to be decided by
> the leadership of the groups (and don't
> think for a moment that the topic hasn't
> been a hot item of discussion with them) is
> whether the traditional, multi-trip,
> multi-engine, multi-railroad convention has
> a future at all. Here's why:

> Traditional conventions have become hugely
> expensive, both for the sponsoring
> organizations and the attendees. This isn't
> 1990; all costs associated with such things,
> from insurance to hotels; from engine
> operating costs to passenger car rental;
> from fuel to meals; from deadhead equipment
> placement moves to (fill in the blank) have
> not simply grown - they have skyrocketed.
> Throw in the fact that few railroads want to
> deal with these kind of big disruptions any
> more, and you end up with a convention
> package that must be priced far beyond the
> reach of the average fan.

> This isn't new; it began a number of years
> ago, and it's had an effect on recent
> conventions, large and small. Attendance
> numbers on the surface sometimes look
> impressive, but when you crunch the numbers
> you find that few attendees ride more than
> one trip; some don't ride any. They don't
> sign up for seminars, don't stay at the
> desginated hotels, etc. All of this raises
> the price for those who do pay for these
> things.

> It has reached a point where a fan who
> decides to attend a convention with, say, 3
> different trips, a photo session, some
> seminars, a banquet, shop tours, and a swap
> meet is looking at $1,500 or more just for
> the convention. This doesn't count the cost
> of getting to and from the venue. Juat take
> the average convention brochure from the
> past 5 or 6 years and add up all the prices.
> And even with all that, most conventions
> barely break even; some lose money.

> It has reached a cost point where many NRHS
> members don't even sign up for a convention.
> They go to the host city, stay in a cheaper
> hotel, don't pay the sign-up fee, chase the
> trips, skip the organized, non-trip events,
> try to sneak into the photo sessions and
> tours, then go home and complain about the
> cost and how hard it is to do anything.
> Meanwhile, the convention sponsor is left
> holding the bag for hotel and event
> guarantee prices and so forth.

> Have you explored your idea with the
> organizations? Have you contacted the
> railroads? OC shouldn't be a problem, but
> W&LE might be, not to mention the roads
> that would have to host deadhead moves to
> and from to get some of the other engines to
> the event. Have you looked at hotels and
> insurance costs and the zillions of other
> things that go into such an event?

> Not to discourage you, but if it was as easy
> as some think, and if it was a "sure
> thing," thing there would be huge
> conventions every year. Maybe even more than
> one a year.

> Personally, I think the annual convention
> with a big steam presence (measured in
> number of locomotives and number of trips
> and events) is pretty much dead, and the
> sooner the foamers and the leadership of the
> organizations understands that, the better.
> A big event every 3 or 5 years or so might
> still stand a chance. But trying to outdo
> the previous year or years - every year -
> doesn't work any longer.

> The changes in railroads, in the
> memberships, in financial realities and in
> attitudes have overwhelmed the traditional
> annual big foamfest. It's time to come up
> with something new, or just fade away.


pww57@hotmail.com

> I hate to say how much I agree with someone
> who hides behind a pseudonym, but he's hit
> the nail on the head again.

I won't hold it against you, Alex.

> There is yet an inherent problem, however:
> The enthusiasts often seem painfully
> oblivious to such things as history
> seminars. It's a very real case that you
> have to almost PAY people to attend what
> looks like a college lecture. Realistically,
> you can't force people to listen to the
> opera or watch ballet in order to get to
> their chosen dessert of rock music and TV
> sitcoms.

Aye, and there's the rub. NRHS conventions, IMO, have never been much about history, no matter how hard the serious historians try. They are foamgasms (I've also heard them described as "slobberfests"), pure and simple. That's where the question that Bob Yarger often asks is revealed: "Are we truly historians and preservationists, or just a bunch of overgrown kids playing with big toys?" IMO, there isn't anything wrong with the latter, as long as we're willing to admit it and not trying to dress up our fantasies in the name of history.

Back to the original subject: Conventions now are expensive as I said. For the host chapter or chapters, it involves a financial committment approaching $1 million, not to mention the intensive manpower committment required. That ain't hay, and the money has to come from somewhere, as do the dozens of people it takes to handle the myriad details that MUST be handled for a convention to be successful. Just trying to see how many engines and trips can be crammed into a week and letting the details fend for themselves doesn't work. See also the "Garden State in '88" fiasco.

Just exactly what does "rolling out the red carpet" mean? Someone has to line up hotels, meeting rooms, buses, boarding sites, meals, insurance, printing, ticket sales, liason with railroads, local authorities and emergency agencies, parking, spouse tours, swap meets, speakers, seminars, communications back-up plans, fall-back positions and a thousand other details. Not to mention fronting the enourmous amounts of money it takes to set these things up (and hope to hell there is enough paid attendance to cover the costs). If you've never been involved in the planning and execution of such an event, it is difficult to fathom just how hard it is to do it right, no matter how good the intentions, and how many hundreds of details MUST be attended to.

That said, before one starts thinking of a huge steam gathering anywhere, it would behoove him or her to take a serious look at recent conventions.
The days of sell-out trips are gone. Conventions of the past 3-5 years, even with multiple steam engines and trips, have not lived up to expectations (hopes) in terms of ridership and sales. Inbound trips have run at less than half full, if they run at all; several have been cancelled due to poor sales. The same is true of some trips during conventions. The recent St. Louis NRHS convention ended up with about half as many trips as originally planned, due to poor ticket sales and plain old lack of interest by the attendees.

I'm not saying that conventions are doomed to failure. I am saying that it isn't nearly as easy or as seamless or a sure thing as it might appear to some. We'd all like to see our favorite engines gathered someplace, but wishing won't make it happen, nor does anyone "owe" us that spectacle.

I had hoped what I was proposing was a shorter, more economical convention, that, although it might not have as great a variety of events, would have events that might appeal to most of the potential attendees, hence be more likely to sell out.
Example: Maybe you don't have to have a very formal coat and tie banquet. Take advantage of being in Amish country and make it a family style meal, or outdoor BBQ for about half what a major hotel banquet would cost.

Since this isn't rocket science, maybe the failed NASA idea of "Better, faster, cheaper" might be just what we need to attract and bring in fans who would become - or stay - members. Opening ticket sales up to the public has probably become a standard part of selling trips in the future. An inbound convention special is an option, a nice preamble to the week, but not a necessity. There wasn't one for Baltimore this year.

I consider myself a fan who is also a serious historian and preservationist. I don't collect a lot of "stuff" or model because I choose to give money to worthy projects of interest to me. I'm probably unusual in a hobby noted for cheapskates. If an excursion is run more than one day, I'll usually buy a ticket to ride one day and chase the other. Or, I'll ride at least one excursion at the convention, attend the banquet, do the seminars and maybe other events - in other words, at least contribute something financially to the effort.

I think a lot of fans started just chasing the trips because they got to be marathon death marches from pre-dawn to Midnight, with a decided lack of run-by's. If you run excursions of a reasonable duration with multiple photo ops, then more of the serious photographers would be willing to buy a ticket. My biggest gripes with the Royal Gorge trip in '97 (which was well run overall) were the lack of good runby locations in good light and the really looong days. Now I realize that finding a place to put 500 people on the ground is not easy, but if you can't do it right then maybe you shouldn't do it. The best photo op of the whole trip was the improptu meet with Amtrak's CZ on the last day of the trip - good light, and plenty of room for all to get a decent shot. I'm willing to bet that a moderate capacity photo freight trip as part of a convention would sell out.

I'm not looking to repeat Roanoke in '87, or other super-conventions. I'm trying to help make these organizations more relevent to a greater range of ages and backgounds. I want to be able to know that when I see the passengers coming down the platform for boarding that I'm at a railroad gathering and not a caucasian AARP convention.

> I won't hold it against you, Alex.

> Aye, and there's the rub. NRHS conventions,
> IMO, have never been much about history, no
> matter how hard the serious historians try.
> They are foamgasms (I've also heard them
> described as "slobberfests"), pure
> and simple. That's where the question that
> Bob Yarger often asks is revealed: "Are
> we truly historians and preservationists, or
> just a bunch of overgrown kids playing with
> big toys?" IMO, there isn't anything
> wrong with the latter, as long as we're
> willing to admit it and not trying to dress
> up our fantasies in the name of history.

> Back to the original subject: Conventions
> now are expensive as I said. For the host
> chapter or chapters, it involves a financial
> committment approaching $1 million, not to
> mention the intensive manpower committment
> required. That ain't hay, and the money has
> to come from somewhere, as do the dozens of
> people it takes to handle the myriad details
> that MUST be handled for a convention to be
> successful. Just trying to see how many
> engines and trips can be crammed into a week
> and letting the details fend for themselves
> doesn't work. See also the "Garden
> State in '88" fiasco.

> Just exactly what does "rolling out the
> red carpet" mean? Someone has to line
> up hotels, meeting rooms, buses, boarding
> sites, meals, insurance, printing, ticket
> sales, liason with railroads, local
> authorities and emergency agencies, parking,
> spouse tours, swap meets, speakers,
> seminars, communications back-up plans,
> fall-back positions and a thousand other
> details. Not to mention fronting the
> enourmous amounts of money it takes to set
> these things up (and hope to hell there is
> enough paid attendance to cover the costs).
> If you've never been involved in the
> planning and execution of such an event, it
> is difficult to fathom just how hard it is
> to do it right, no matter how good the
> intentions, and how many hundreds of details
> MUST be attended to.

> That said, before one starts thinking of a
> huge steam gathering anywhere, it would
> behoove him or her to take a serious look at
> recent conventions.
> The days of sell-out trips are gone.
> Conventions of the past 3-5 years, even with
> multiple steam engines and trips, have not
> lived up to expectations (hopes) in terms of
> ridership and sales. Inbound trips have run
> at less than half full, if they run at all;
> several have been cancelled due to poor
> sales. The same is true of some trips during
> conventions. The recent St. Louis NRHS
> convention ended up with about half as many
> trips as originally planned, due to poor
> ticket sales and plain old lack of interest
> by the attendees.

> I'm not saying that conventions are doomed
> to failure. I am saying that it isn't nearly
> as easy or as seamless or a sure thing as it
> might appear to some. We'd all like to see
> our favorite engines gathered someplace, but
> wishing won't make it happen, nor does
> anyone "owe" us that spectacle.


pww57@hotmail.com

> I had hoped what I was proposing was a
> shorter, more economical convention, that,
> although it might not have as great a
> variety of events, would have events that
> might appeal to most of the potential
> attendees, hence be more likely to sell out.
> Example: Maybe you don't have to have a very
> formal coat and tie banquet. Take advantage
> of being in Amish country and make it a
> family style meal, or outdoor BBQ for about
> half what a major hotel banquet would cost.

You can't have it both ways, Paul. The costs go up go geometrically as you add engines and trips. And the banquet is not a huge cost factor, like trips are. The only way to have a cheap convention is to have few trips, based where the engine(s) and cars already are, so you don't have huge inbound and outbound deadhead costs. Besides, where are you going to have the meal, no matter who hosts it, at a reasonable cost? In somebody's barn?

> Since this isn't rocket science, maybe the
> failed NASA idea of "Better, faster,
> cheaper" might be just what we need to
> attract and bring in fans who would become -
> or stay - members. Opening ticket sales up
> to the public has probably become a standard
> part of selling trips in the future. An
> inbound convention special is an option, a
> nice preamble to the week, but not a
> necessity. There wasn't one for Baltimore
> this year.

Most recent conventions already have had to open ticket sales to the pulbic just to break even, or to make enough sales to prevent outright cancellation of trips. The Arizona convention had both inbound and outbound trips, which ran less than half full. Just having trips does not
make a successful convention a sure thing.

> I consider myself a fan who is also a
> serious historian and preservationist. I
> don't collect a lot of "stuff" or
> model because I choose to give money to
> worthy projects of interest to me. I'm
> probably unusual in a hobby noted for
> cheapskates. If an excursion is run more
> than one day, I'll usually buy a ticket to
> ride one day and chase the other. Or, I'll
> ride at least one excursion at the
> convention, attend the banquet, do the
> seminars and maybe other events - in other
> words, at least contribute something
> financially to the effort.

Yes, you probably are a bit unique.

> I think a lot of fans started just chasing
> the trips because they got to be marathon
> death marches from pre-dawn to Midnight,
> with a decided lack of run-by's. If you run
> excursions of a reasonable duration with
> multiple photo ops, then more of the serious
> photographers would be willing to buy a
> ticket. My biggest gripes with the Royal
> Gorge trip in '97 (which was well run
> overall) were the lack of good runby
> locations in good light and the really
> looong days. Now I realize that finding a
> place to put 500 people on the ground is not
> easy, but if you can't do it right then
> maybe you shouldn't do it. The best photo op
> of the whole trip was the improptu meet with
> Amtrak's CZ on the last day of the trip -
> good light, and plenty of room for all to
> get a decent shot. I'm willing to bet that a
> moderate capacity photo freight trip as part
> of a convention would sell out.

That's where the foamer meets the historian, and the results are usually ugly.

Besdies, what can the railroad do about how the track is laid out in relation to sun?

Seriously, it's become very difficult to sell trips, no matter what the "hook" is, be it rare mileage, a short trip, a long trip, deluxe equipment, a locomotive that runs infrequently, lots of runbys, no runbys, etc.

> I'm not looking to repeat Roanoke in '87, or
> other super-conventions. I'm trying to help
> make these organizations more relevent to a
> greater range of ages and backgounds. I want
> to be able to know that when I see the
> passengers coming down the platform for
> boarding that I'm at a railroad gathering
> and not a caucasian AARP convention.

Well, good luck. BTW, you could have seen the assortment of people and ages at any of the Railfairs held in California in 1981, 1991 or 1999. There were NO trips involved in the 1981 and 1991 Railfairs; and the 1991 attendance record has yet to be broken.

...And sometimes you'll never persuade the most persistant naysayer. At the risk of being accused of burying my head in the sand dome, I think it's time to end this "Point/Counterpoint" and let the powers-that-be hash out the finer points of the arguments made over the last week. I know I have at least some support in the right places.

Obviously, "Steam REalist" just doesn't want to see anymore attempts at national conventions, while I think there can be a way to make it work to the satisfaction of most members, and at a reasonable cost to the attendees.

It will be interesting to see what, if anything comes of this discussion.

pww57@hotmail.com

> ...And sometimes you'll never persuade the
> most persistant naysayer. At the risk of
> being accused of burying my head in the sand
> dome, I think it's time to end this
> "Point/Counterpoint" and let the
> powers-that-be hash out the finer points of
> the arguments made over the last week. I
> know I have at least some support in the
> right places.

I don't think anyone is saying it can't be done. But each one of these "mega-events" is draining the life out of the NRHS. Many of us think that a national enthusiasts umbrella group is important. The current leadership is living in the past and may therefor prevent there from being a future.

> Obviously, "Steam REalist" just
> doesn't want to see anymore attempts at
> national conventions, while I think there
> can be a way to make it work to the
> satisfaction of most members, and at a
> reasonable cost to the attendees.

I guess this just proves that "Realist" is to be ignored. This is like a football team that keeps rushing up the middle over and over again, even though they are gaining no yardage.

> It will be interesting to see what, if
> anything comes of this discussion.

Unfortunately, I predict that the NRHS will continue to lose members and have more chapters become inactive (by the way, at least 20% of the lister chapters on the NRHS website in reality don't exist anymore). A few more "successes" like Baltimore and the NRHS will be history.

To Steam Realist: "A prophet is not without honor save in his own country".