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GG1 Preservation
https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7452		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Ted Miles [ Sat Nov 08, 2003 10:00 pm ]
Post subject:  GG1 Preservation
I heard a rumor that the State Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania is going to scrap their GG1 #4935 because of PVC contamination.

Yhe car is displayed indoors. It does not have the transformers that housed the now known hazardous chemicals. Surely if asbestos and lead can be cleaned up so can PVCs.

How can this be? There are a bunch of them around, but what a wonderful design, both for looks and long term operation!

Ted Miles

ted_miles@nps.gov
Author:  Wowak [ Sat Nov 08, 2003 10:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: GG1 Preservation
> I heard a rumor

Thats the key word, Ted, a RUMOR. ;)

mrwowak@yahoo.com
Author:  Howard Gorin [ Sat Nov 08, 2003 11:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: GG1 Preservation
Would it be necessary to clean up any PCB or any other contamination before the engine was scrapped?
If the same rules apply to locomotives as it does to other structures and ships then the item must be free of lead, asbestos, oil, PCB's and any other contamination before the item is scrapped.

hgorin@ix.netcom.com
Author:  Earl Pitts [ Sun Nov 09, 2003 1:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: GG1 Preservation
> I heard a rumor that the State Railroad
> Museum of Pennsylvania is going to scrap
> their GG1 #4935 because of PVC
> contamination.

Someone started this tale severla months back, and was adamant that it was true. It wasn't, and he could offer no proof, so take that for what it's worth.
Author:  ge13031 [ Sun Nov 09, 2003 8:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: PCB remediation
It would appear that the technology is out there to solve the problem of PCB residues on solid surfaces. Cost of such a process is unknown to me. Something like this would only be done after testing the locomotive/site to verify that it had to be done.

Were it that simple to "scrap" supposedly "contaminated" railroad equipment ... if indeed there are levels of contaminants that must be dealt with, current methods of scrapping would cause more contamination then leaving the equipment intact.

On the subject remediation, on of my favorite examples is a railroad bridge, any railroad bridge ... liberally coated with red lead primer and many coated of lead based paint before the current EPA was even thought of. Silly thing sitting there with paint peeling and rust bleeding through. Imagine encapsulating the bridge, grit blasting same, packaging the residue and shipping the contaminated waste off to an approved disposal site. Soil samples will be taken before and after to insure a good job was done or else contaminated soil must be removed and shipped off to a disposal site ... etc, etc, etc! So nobody paints railroad bridges anymore because its acceptable to let the paint weather off and any contaminating elements be slowly diluted into the surrounding environment. "Dilution is a perfectly acceptable Solution".


http://d.dominohosting.biz/cairo/Envirosource/envr
lamontdc@adelphia.net
Author:  buddy bob [ Sun Nov 09, 2003 10:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: GG1 Preservation
> I heard a rumor that the State Railroad
> Museum of Pennsylvania is going to scrap
> their GG1 #4935 because of PVC
> contamination.

> Yhe car is displayed indoors. It does not
> have the transformers that housed the now
> known hazardous chemicals. Surely if
> asbestos and lead can be cleaned up so can
> PVCs.

> How can this be? There are a bunch of them
> around, but what a wonderful design, both
> for looks and long term operation!

> Ted Miles of course its a grate loco its a copy of a new haven loco. the prr couldn't design a good loco them selfs. regards bb
Author:  Stephen Hussar [ Sun Nov 09, 2003 11:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: GG1 Design
They didn't exactly do it themselves, they hired Raymond Lowey to do it.

http://www.raymondloewyfoundation.com/about/index.html
SJHussar@aol.com
Author:  Earl Pitts [ Sun Nov 09, 2003 11:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: GG1 Design
> They didn't exactly do it themselves, they
> hired Raymond Lowey to do it.

Lowey improved the appearance and the assembly methods of the body shell (rounded corners, welding instead of riveting, etc.). He had nothing to do with the mechanical/electrical design.

And that still doesn't change the fact that the first breathless post about this "they-are-going-to-scrap-the GG1-because-of-PCB's" nonsense, and the claim that RRMPA had roped off the locomotive to block access to it, was bogus from the get-go. Probably just to incite panic amongst us.
Author:  Rob Davis [ Sun Nov 09, 2003 12:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Lowey
> They didn't exactly do it themselves, they
> hired Raymond Lowey to do it.

Not to knock the great industrial designer, but he merely streamlined and already existing design, right? Wasn't the GG-1's shape was pre-determined before Lowey got involved?

Rob

trains@robertjohndavis.com
Author:  Stephen Hussar [ Sun Nov 09, 2003 1:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Lowey
> Wasn't the GG-1's
> shape was pre-determined before Lowey got
> involved?

Good question, and if that's the case I wonder what it looked like before he got involved. He certainly re-designed a lot of stuff, but in general it seems like he's usually given specific credit for either designing, or modifying something that already existed. i.e. His modifications to the Norfolk & Western Roanoke Station, his re-design of the Coca-Cola and Greyhound logos.

As far as the original post goes, I think someone from RRMPA already put this rumor to rest the last time it came up.



http://www.raymondloewyfoundation.com/about/index.html
SJHussar@aol.com
Author:  Frank Hicks [ Sun Nov 09, 2003 3:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Loewy *PIC*
> Good question, and if that's the case I
> wonder what it looked like before he got
> involved.

The photo below is what the GG1 looked like before Loewy was involved. The basic design of the locomotive was not done by Loewy, and the general carbody design dated back to the modified P5's. The same general design was also used on the R1, the competitor to GG1 prototype 4800 shown below. Loewy streamlined the carbody, replaced rivets with welding, and made a few other minor changes which made the production locomotives look as graceful as they do.

Frank Hicks

Image
F-Hicks@wiu.edu
Author:  Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Sun Nov 09, 2003 3:08 pm ]
Post subject:  The Pennsylvania-museum GG1s: rumors and "facts?"
> And that still doesn't change the fact that
> the first breathless post about this
> "they-are-going-to-scrap-the
> GG1-because-of-PCB's" nonsense, and the
> claim that RRMPA had roped off the
> locomotive to block access to it, was bogus
> from the get-go. Probably just to incite
> panic amongst us.

For the record, *I'm* the one who relayed a (now-discredited-simply-for-lack-of-confirmation) report from a RRMPa volunteer that the GG1 inside the museum (4800, NOT 4935) had been roped off and access restricted to those in chemical-protection suits. Nowhere did I mention 4935 or "they're going to scrap it" reports.

And insofar as refutation of the report goes, let's point out 1) the chap who reported same to me refused all attempts at contacting him for confirmation, and 2) NO ONE from the RR Museum of Pa. or any of its support groups ever stepped up and said outright "False" or "totally bogus" or "That's not quite true, what the real situation is...." Therefore, the question of access to the GG1s over PCBs is still, technically speaking, unanswered.

There IS a bitter fact on the GG1s coming up, however. There are reports (perhaps Dan Cupper can confirm) that Amtrak BADLY wants GG1 4859 out from the Harrisburg station trainshed. Unless this loco gets plinthed out in the open next to Harris Tower in Harrisburg (which is pure speculation on my part--I've never even heard the idea floated), it's all too likely that it will end up at the RR Museum of Pennsylvania--saddling them with no less than THREE GG1s. I believe that the Commonwealth might technically own 4859 at this point; I'm not sure--if it does, then Strasburg is the obvious destination. Unfortunately, there's lots of history behind all three (4800, 4859, and 4935), but no doubt one, at least, would have to "go". And at least one "preserved" GG1, 4873, has already been scrapped in New Jersey after an abortive preservation attempt.


LNER4472-NOSPAM-@bcpl.net
Author:  Dan Cupper [ Sun Nov 09, 2003 7:36 pm ]
Post subject:  GG1 facts re: PRR 4859
A message was posted:
>
> There IS a bitter fact on the GG1s coming
> up, however.

From my viewpoint, this seems to be more in the category of speculation rather than fact.

> There are reports that Amtrak BADLY wants
> GG1 4859 out from the Harrisburg station
> trainshed.

Who's giving these "reports," and why, and in what form? This may have been true 8-10 years ago when Amtrak was considering building a DMU servicing base in the station, but that plan (fortunately) hit the trash can when Amtrak and PennDOT agreed to rehab and dedicate some AEM7s for Phila.-Harrisburg service. Besides, what's that 12,000-volt overhead FOR anyway, if not to run electric traction?

>> Unless this loco gets plinthed
>> out in the open next to Harris Tower in
>> Harrisburg (which is pure speculation on my
>> part--I've never even heard the idea
>> floated)

NRHS Harrisburg Chapter owns the tower and its immediate small grounds, and not one inch of track, nor is any available there.

, it's all too likely that it will
> end up at the RR Museum of
> Pennsylvania--saddling them with no less
> than THREE GG1s.

The state, city, and Amtrak all are party to a long-term track-space lease agreement for the locomotive to be displayed at Harrisburg station, which still has a number of years to go before the original term expires.

>> I believe that the
>> Commonwealth might technically own 4859 at
>> this point

The Pennsylvania Historical & Museum Commission has been the owner of the locomotive since 1986, the same year it was placed on display at Harrisburg station.

Dan Cupper
Harrisburg, Pa.
(chaired GG1 4859 committee from its formation to its achievement of the goal of preserving the first GG1 to enter Harrisburg in revenue service.)

cupper@att.net
Author:  Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Sun Nov 09, 2003 8:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Thanks for the corrections, Dan
> Who's giving these "reports," and
> why, and in what form? This may have been
> true 8-10 years ago when Amtrak was
> considering building a DMU servicing base in
> the station, but that plan (fortunately) hit
> the trash can when Amtrak and PennDOT agreed
> to rehab and dedicate some AEM7s for
> Phila.-Harrisburg service. Besides, what's
> that 12,000-volt overhead FOR anyway, if not
> to run electric traction?

*I plead guilty to "outdated" and not-necessarily-accurate-at-the-time information, which I got from not one, but a couple scattered sources in a better position than average to know, over casual conversation. To be honest, I don't remember exactly whom--heck, I might have thought YOU told me that at one point.

> NRHS Harrisburg Chapter owns the tower and
> its immediate small grounds, and not one
> inch of track, nor is any available there.

*I didn't claim you did. Never say never, though, eh? The state, city, and Amtrak all are party to
> a long-term track-space lease agreement for
> the locomotive to be displayed at Harrisburg
> station, which still has a number of years
> to go before the original term expires.

*Happy to hear it. Also happy to hear we still have Amtrak in existence at all, for the time being.

> The Pennsylvania Historical & Museum
> Commission has been the owner of the
> locomotive since 1986, the same year it was
> placed on display at Harrisburg station.

*That's what I thought. It's just that if I had said so, good ol' Murphy would have bitten me when you came back and told me the Harrisburg NRHS still held title.

LNER4472-NOSPAM-@bcpl.net
Author:  Dan Cupper [ Sun Nov 09, 2003 10:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Minor follow-up issue
Just a quick note, Sandy...

> *That's what I thought. It's just that if I
> had said so, good ol' Murphy would have
> bitten me when you came back and told me the
> Harrisburg NRHS still held title.

Actually, Harrisburg NRHS never held title to the 4859. We did all the administration and fund-raising through a separate committee that took advantage of the chapter's 501(c)3 designation. But the chapter never owned the unit -- we were willing to do so had that been necessary, but it wasn't necessary. The goal was saving, restoring, and displaying, not owning. Ownership went from Conrail to Naporano to, IIRC, Harrisburg Redevelopment Authority (with interim bridge financing from Lancaster Chapter NRHS), to PHMC. PHMC put in the largest single share of funding and a condition of that was that PHMC become the owner, which it was willing to do (and we in the Harrisburg NRHS were OK with that, too).

Dan Cupper
Harrisburg, Pa.

cupper@att.net
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