Scrapping of CTA car 4387 at East Troy.
See link for photos and explanation.



Scrapping of CTA 4387
bowens@rypn.org

Congratulations to the East Troy group for overcoming the squirrel instinct and scrapping a car that added almost nothing to the historical record or to the visitor experience at this museum.

Based on Frank Hicks's list, we are now down to 37 preserved? 4000 series Chicago El cars, many of which are rotting away with little or no effort being evident to conserve, let alone restore, them.

I am compelled to write this, as I feel that certain rolling stock, particularly in the electric railway area, has been "overcollected" with little chance for long term survival, and that many museum groups will eventually find that they need to reduce their collections before nature does it for them.

The abovementioned Chicago El cars are a good example. I suspect that 37 is far more than can be justified based on the resources available to the preservation community.

Hope this brings on some good discussion.


artschwartz@sprintmail.com

> Congratulations to the East Troy group for
> overcoming the squirrel instinct and
> scrapping a car that added almost nothing to
> the historical record or to the visitor
> experience at this museum.

I agree ... good move and source of spare parts to keep the rest of the "fleet" running

> Based on Frank Hicks's list, we are now down
> to 37 preserved? 4000 series Chicago El
> cars, many of which are rotting away with
> little or no effort being evident to
> conserve, let alone restore, them.

Makes you wonder ...at the prices these cars were going for there had to be some semblence of buying extras for pieces/parts and general source of scarce traction equipment

> I am compelled to write this, as I feel that
> certain rolling stock, particularly in the
> electric railway area, has been
> "overcollected" with little chance
> for long term survival, and that many museum
> groups will eventually find that they need
> to reduce their collections before nature
> does it for them.

Coming from the traction desert of Ohio where the interurban era died well before the advent of preservation I cannot identify with the term "overcollect". There is no place in the state where I can ride a genuine Ohio Interurban Car! I am thankful the community is such that it provides an opportunity to possibly share resources so that someday this might be possible.



lamontdc@adelphia.net

Interesting point about overpreservation of certain car types. But I think that 4000's, although they are somewhat overpreserved, are not too badly cared for overall. Of the 37 preserved 4000's, six (16%) are in operation at their various museums. This compares favorably with the overall preserved-to-operating ratio of rapid transit cars, which is 12%.

There are other car types which are, I think, better examples of overpreservation. South Shore interurban cars are one: of the 44 preserved, only five (11%) are operating and all of those are at a single location (East Troy). Of 59 preserved San Francisco PCC's (not counting Pennsylvania cars acquired in the past decade), only four (7%) are operating and all of those are still on the Muni system. A similar situation exists with Boston PCC's; of the 63 preserved cars, of which 13 are still owned by MBTA, nine (14%) are in use on the Mattapan line - but of the 50 cars preserved outside of Boston itself, not a single one is operating. And there are no fewer than 39 Shaker Heights PCC's preserved but not a single one of those is operating anywhere.

I think the root problem varies somewhat from car type to car type, but in the end the biggest problem is simply that most of these overcollected cars are owned by museums that cannot take care of much of anything. Of the 15 4000's that I would consider to be more or less "derelict," 11 are owned by organizations that do not have a single operating electric car. For those organizations, the varied (and more historic) cars in their collections that as a whole outnumber the 4000's have fared no better than their more common counterparts.

Frank Hicks

Pictured: one of the Ohio Railway Museum's 4000's, from Dave's Train Pictures

http://206.103.49.193/odds/oh/htm/orm08.htm

F-Hicks@wiu.edu

> Interesting point about overpreservation of
> certain car types. But I think that 4000's,
> although they are somewhat overpreserved,
> are not too badly cared for overall. Of the
> 37 preserved 4000's, six (16%) are in
> operation at their various museums. This
> compares favorably with the overall
> preserved-to-operating ratio of rapid
> transit cars, which is 12%.

> There are other car types which are, I
> think, better examples of overpreservation.
> South Shore interurban cars are one: of the
> 44 preserved, only five (11%) are operating
> and all of those are at a single location
> (East Troy).

Do you count the South Shore car #11, now at Michigan Transit Museum, the one that was traded by East Troy to MTM for their North Shore car #761? While not under her own power, she is used every weekend during the Spring, Summer, and Fall, as well as on all their Santa Trains, albeit as a coach currently.

Picture of South Shore #11 at MTM below.

TJ Gaffney

Port Huron Museum

tjgaffney@phmuseum.org

> Do you count the South Shore car #11, now at
> Michigan Transit Museum, the one that was
> traded by East Troy to MTM for their North
> Shore car #761?

No, I didn't car 11 as "operating." I also excluded cars 33 and 107, stored in Bloomington and supposedly fully operational; car 34, stored fully operational at IRM; and car 1, towed inoperable on the Southern Michigan RR. This is admittedly a quick-and-dirty survey. It would be interesting to do an in-depth survey of these cars, ranking them on some sort of "current condition" scale and trying to determine how well the different car types are cared for.

North Shore cars provide a marked contrast to CTA 4000's and other "overpreserved" cars. Of 21 NSL interurbans still around, only eight are non-operational or in dead storage; three (including #761) are under restoration; and no fewer than ten - nearly 50% of the total - are either operating or stored in operational condition.

Frank Hicks

F-Hicks@wiu.edu

> No, I didn't car 11 as
> "operating." I also excluded cars
> 33 and 107, stored in Bloomington and
> supposedly fully operational; car 34, stored
> fully operational at IRM; and car 1, towed
> inoperable on the Southern Michigan RR. This
> is admittedly a quick-and-dirty survey. It
> would be interesting to do an in-depth
> survey of these cars, ranking them on some
> sort of "current condition" scale
> and trying to determine how well the
> different car types are cared for.

> North Shore cars provide a marked contrast
> to CTA 4000's and other
> "overpreserved" cars. Of 21 NSL
> interurbans still around, only eight are
> non-operational or in dead storage; three
> (including #761) are under restoration; and
> no fewer than ten - nearly 50% of the total
> - are either operating or stored in
> operational condition.

> Frank Hicks

Frank:

Don't stop now! What about CA&E cars? Some fascinating stats you've come up with.

Les Beckman (HVRM)

midlandblb@cs.com

> Don't stop now! What about CA&E cars?
> Some fascinating stats you've come up with.

Well, if you insist... :-)

CA&E cars have also fared very well in preservation, even better than North Shore cars. In fact, every single CA&E car preserved is stored indoors and out of 18 interurbans, 11 (61%) are operational with one more car under restoration.

There are almost unending stats that could be derived from the database of preserved electric cars. Concerning condition, of 2,094 cars currently in the database 958 (46%) are in dead (inoperable) storage (of these 283 are bodies); 554 (26%) are operational; and 130 (6%) are currently undergoing restorative work. Most of the remainder are either on display but not operational, towed inoperable, or their conditions are unknown. Feel free to e-mail me directly if anyone has any questions about particular statistics.

Frank Hicks

F-Hicks@wiu.edu

Frank:

I think you make a good point with the CA&E cars. In my opinion, the storage condition and general level of care is more important than the operational status in evaluating the permanence of a preserved car. My original point was that too many cars have been collected and left to rot, as with the example shown in your picture.

Your examples of Boston, San Francisco and Shaker Heights PCC cars are good ones. I would add the 40 or more Red Arrow (including P&W) cars shown on your list.

By the way, there is one ex Shaker Heights PCC that has been beautifully restored and is operational at the Minnesota Transportation Museum. Of course, it spent most of its life in Newark.

artschwartz@sprintmail.com

IMHO Frank has done a fantastic job of assembling all this information! If those of you whose equipment is listed could take the time to run over the information, check it, fill in the blanks and maybe send in a current picture it will become that much better. Could you also take the additional step of contacting those who either don't use "the web" to help fill in the blanks ?

Thanks Frank


lamontdc@adelphia.net

another interesting group of cars is the Red Devils of Ohio and later CRANDIC. High speed interurbans built in 1930.

Examples are at Western Railway Museum, Seashore, Electric City has two and Ohio Railroad Museum has one in original colors.Possible others.

WRM has 111 in the shop for truck work and Seashore has 118 in the Shop for a second restoration. Those new to the car Interurban seats look wonderful.

Those cars were a last gasp of the Interurban industry using light weight high speed cars to offset the increasing use of automobiles on paved roads.

Maybe overpreserved, but fascinating cars!

Ted Miles

ted_miles@nps.gov

> By the way, there is one ex Shaker Heights
> PCC that has been beautifully restored and
> is operational at the Minnesota
> Transportation Museum.

You're absolutely right! I completely forgot about 322.

Thanks to Dennis for the generous comments. I've received a tremendous amount of help from dozens of people from virtually every major trolley museum, but there are still plenty of gaps to fill in and all information is greatly appreciated!

Frank Hicks

F-Hicks@wiu.edu