I was asked by the president of the NorthEast Railroad Historical Society to make the posting on passenger cars for sale. This was done as a favor to him and his group. Since then I have recieved a number of nasty-grams from URHS and its leaders. Some of them have gotten personal. I am not connected to this group except by personal contact with some of its members. I DO NOT NEED the personal attacks on me. Future e-correspondence will be handled by rdg92885@earthlink.net
Why is it necessary for people in the north eastern USA to resent groups that are actually trying to preserve equipment rather than maintaining "good old boys" clubs????

Kermit Geary, Jr

kgjr1554@earthlink.net

Why would URHS care if another group is looking for cars?
what exactly is their problem?
bizzare...
Scot

> I was asked by the president of the
> NorthEast Railroad Historical Society to
> make the posting on passenger cars for sale.
> This was done as a favor to him and his
> group. Since then I have recieved a number
> of nasty-grams from URHS and its leaders.
> Some of them have gotten personal. I am not
> connected to this group except by personal
> contact with some of its members. I DO NOT
> NEED the personal attacks on me. Future
> e-correspondence will be handled by
> rdg92885@earthlink.net
> Why is it necessary for people in the north
> eastern USA to resent groups that are
> actually trying to preserve equipment rather
> than maintaining "good old boys"
> clubs????

> Kermit Geary, Jr


sscotsman@yahoo.com

Welcome to NJ, KG Jr.!

> Why is it necessary for people in the north
> eastern USA to resent groups that are
> actually trying to preserve equipment rather
> than maintaining "good old boys"
> clubs????

Good question. Think about it next time you walk through our state railroad museum.

Rob

rdavis@rypn.org

> Welcome to NJ, KG Jr.!

> Good question. Think about it next time you
> walk through our state railroad museum.

> Rob

Rob, to be fair, (not that you weren't) this probably isn't limited to NJ. People everywhere have a tendency to prefer being king of nothing than having control wrested away.. unfortunately. This board has seen numerous accounts of petty dictatorialism over the years..

Superheater@rrmail.com

> Rob, to be fair, (not that you weren't) this
> probably isn't limited to NJ. People
> everywhere have a tendency to prefer being
> king of nothing than having control wrested
> away.. unfortunately. This board has seen
> numerous accounts of petty dictatorialism
> over the years..

OH SOOOOO TRUE !!!!!!!!


lamontdc@adelphia.net

> OH SOOOOO TRUE !!!!!!!!
Wasn't going to respond to this stuff that SO Sounds like Ohio,But why won't people respond and fight the little Hitlers!!! Then maybe we can finally make something work?? Is it that much easier to just get pissed and walk away?

No one person can do it all by themselves!! Like an old friend told me, more than one time, No one person can name all the presidents, but put three people toghter and they can.
So why can't everyone at least try and do the thing we all want and perserve the history we all love??????
It may not be easy, but nothing worth having is!!!!!


irss@eriecoast.com

One of the paradoxes of dealing with 'personalities' in our organizations is that such incidents are rarely brought into the open, as we don't want to be accused of muck-raking (or worse). More often than not, the results of such incidents are readily evident - as equipment that was saved from the scrapper slowly but surely succumbs to rust while a few bicker over who will benefit from its restoration. The irony is that a little bit of humility, foresight, and cooperation (and a bit of basic work - like tarping roofs and sealing windows) would allow the same equipment to survive several generations.

rrhistorian@hotmail.com

> Why would URHS care if another group is
> looking for cars?
> what exactly is their problem?

The problem, is that URHS exists...

(Sorry Erik, considering the reports from other posters, I couldn't resist that one!)

Fiv4HghStk@aol.com

Tom, a little more basic then that involves building an organization that "works". Plodding along behind a leader encased in an obsession does not appeal to most folks and the success of their "club" is self evident. Compare an outfit that puts together many volunteers and thousands of hours of free dedicated labor with a club that can't get 10 people interested and try to find out whats missing. When the outfit that you "belong" to no longer has the will to even maintain a front of railway preservation and education it's time to look elsewhere.


lamontdc@adelphia.net

> The problem, is that URHS exists...

> (Sorry Erik, considering the reports from
> other posters, I couldn't resist that one!)

OK, no offense taken, but obligatory Moderator intervention mode is now enabled:

Please, no further sniping at URHS unless it is appended to a constructive criticism or suggestion. The rules is the rules, folks, and they read:

"Constructive, polite criticism, and polite responses to same, are acceptable.

No flaming."


eledbetter@rypn.org

> Please, no further sniping at URHS

Erik,

Really, the URHS is much maligned, when in fact there are some really good folks involved. The "bashing" the organization gets, as a whole, is unfair.

The problem in NJ has been an overall lack of cooperation on many, many levels... from the statehouse to the roundhouse.

The petty train-biff bickering has been a part of the NJ rail scene long before anyone put the letters URHS together.

The URHS is an organization made up of organizations... most of the major railroad groups in New Jersey are a part of it.

To malign the URHS is really to malign all parties involved.

Frankly, I am tired of it.

My sarcastic remark yesterday was specifically about the personal bickering and political play making (both in railfan politics and state politics) that have resulted in no state museum after all this time.

To make blanket criticisms of the URHS is not only unfair, but it is over simplistic.

The URHS has become the whipping post for all the frustration over the musuem situation, though I would wager the URHS team are the most frustrated.

A new direction is probably going to be required to get the NJ museum project off the ground.

At some point, perhaps the collection will have to be donated to exisiting musuems in and around the Tri-State area.

IMHO, that would not be a failure, but a tribute to the effort that has been made. After all, the survival of the pieces is what this is all about.

The URHS bashing has got to stop and progress has to be built from there.

My two cents,

Rob



rdavis@rypn.org

> > Please, no further sniping at URHS

> Erik,

> Really, the URHS is much maligned, when in
> fact there are some really good folks
> involved. The "bashing" the
> organization gets, as a whole, is unfair.

> The problem in NJ has been an overall lack
> of cooperation on many, many levels... from
> the statehouse to the roundhouse.

Rob,

The sniping at URHS can stop, but incidents such as those reported by KG don't help their cause. For any organization to have credibility, it needs leadership who will stand up, take charge, and address the problems within its ranks... not contribute to them. Until that happens, many of the folks at URHS who mean well will be unfairly labeled. It's just the nature of the beast.

A good example of the problems plaguing URHS involves the restoration of the ex-NYC obs car Hickory Creek. URHS claims the car is of so much historic value, that it should be in their collection even though it never operated in NJ. Yet, they go out and spend $750K of taxpayer money, in the form of ISTEA grants, on a "representational" rebuild with the intention of trying to make the money back in an Amtrak charter market that is almost non-existent. Yes, the work done was top rate, but in the process they've not really "restored" the car as a museum piece, they've transformed it into something it never was. Being that you've made extensive modifications the car never saw in regular service, you've then negated the historical value that necessitated it being part of the collection to begin with. So, they've basically put themselves in a Catch-22 situation that is a NBC News "Fleecing of America" report just ready to happen.

Therein lies the problem... is URHS truly a "Historic" organization that is prepping equipment for display as museum pieces, or are they a group of folks who just want to play trains on someone else's dime? With such a convoluted mission statement, problems are going to continue to arise. To be truly "united" is to bring forth one consistent policy, and to have all folks working behind that policy 100%. If folks, or certain segments of URHS's body, don't want to "get on board" with that statement, then they should be prepared to be shut out of the project. Such an attitude may step on a few toes, but nothing is going to get done until credibility and consistency is firmly in place.

Perhaps one way to transform URHS into what it should have been all along, would be to change its current structure. As it stands now, its leadership is comprised almost entirely of local NRHS officers. As a result, bickering, preferential treatment, and fighting over turf will only continue. Perhaps it's time to reorganize the URHS so that a Board of Trustees is established. Rather than making it up of local NRHS members, solicit representatives from each of the established and respected EXISTING railroad museums and tourist operators across the country. The local NRHS chapters would still have delegates who can provide input, but decisions and policy making would be handled by experienced professionals who know and understand the workings of museums better.

A good example of how things can get done in the face of a situation similar to URHS's also lies in NJ. When it came time for the US Navy to retire the USS New Jersey, it was assumed the ship would be placed in the care of a "commission" made up of volunteer proponents for a USS New Jersey museum, with the ship going where they wanted it. There too, political infighting, preferential treatment, and other assorted problems threatened to drag the entire process out. Then, in a short period of time, a group from Southern NJ steps in, applies for custody of the ship with the USN, and walks away as the group awarded custodial oversight of the battleship.

Why did it happen? Because while the folks on the "official" commission continued move in counterproductive circles under the assumption they were a "done deal," the Southern NJ group was comprised of many interests in and outside of preservation, and they approached the entire USS New Jersey museum from a purely businesslike standpoint. They made a committment to recognizing it as a historical piece, and handled themselves as professionals throughout the entire application/museum establishment process. In the end, the US Navy said they've never seen such a well prepared and thorough application for a ship donation, and that the group was much too formidable to ignore.

In the end, New Jersey still ended up with a world-class battleship museum ... one that includes the volunteers who conduct the tours, and helps offset its costs through renting out space in the mess decks/fantail for meetings and social functions. Everybody won, except the group that was too self-involved to see the big picture.

With the leadership at URHS, they can either look to that as an example, and learn from it, or they can repeat history...

Fiv4HghStk@aol.com

Who is the NorthEast Railroad Historical Society? I haven't heard mention of this group before.

Rob

rdavis@rypn.org

I think Rob hit upon the only solution: Getting the few URHS pieces that have any real historic value be transferred to existing museums, in state or out. The URHS "board" is made up of delegates from the state's railroad groups. If you are a member of one of these groups (see the link below to check if your group is) now is the time to ask YOUR officiers and directors for an accounting of what is going on at URHS.

URHS Member Groups List