Here's something I've always pondered--why do few tourist lines run steam in New England? We have Conway Scenic, Valley, and B&ML (and at one time Steamtown, Edaville and Wolfeboro) but is this heavy NIMBY territory? I've curious what y'all think.

Howard, get the 1246 running soon to defy these odds!!

Zinn

> Here's something I've always pondered--why
> do few tourist lines run steam in New
> England? We have Conway Scenic, Valley, and
> B&ML (and at one time Steamtown,
> Edaville and Wolfeboro) but is this heavy
> NIMBY territory? I've curious what y'all
> think.

> Howard, get the 1246 running soon to defy
> these odds!!

> Zinn

Mr. Zinn:

I don't think NIMBY-ism is the issue in quaint olde New England. What tourist lines are you thinking of? I doubt Hobo has any interest in steam power on their regular operation. Berkshire Scenic, Milford-Bennington, VTR-GMRC have no steam power. The active steam operators all have locomotives that need cubic yards of twenty-dollar bills.

At the Naugy, we have no NIMBY problems. We are currently working on constructing a shop building and facility (this weekend's 10 inches of snow put a bit of a crimp into our shop trackage construction!), and once it is complete, we can start thinking about 1246 more realistically. I doubt anyone wants to see her restored and running more than I do! But, she won't be touched until there is a shop, a plan and money in hand to carry out the plan. There are too many taken-apart chooches out there already. Mr. Zinn, we'll save you a seat on the first run! And we'll let that "Crystal Ball" guy know well in advance, too!!


hpincus@mindspring.com

1246 is a former CPR pacific right? G5 class? Last I knew this engine came to the Valley railroad after the Steamtown auction, but some defect was found.

Would be interested in her detailed history since Steamtown. Thanks!

Joshua

Surviving D&H Non-EMDs

> 1246 is a former CPR pacific right? G5
> class? Last I knew this engine came to the
> Valley railroad after the Steamtown auction,
> but some defect was found.

> Would be interested in her detailed history
> since Steamtown. Thanks!

> Joshua

Joshua,

She is indeed a CPR G-5 Pacific. I saw her at the Valley Railroad in August. I also have a clock with her picture on it that was given to me by my brother-in-law and his wife for Christmas several years ago. It makes train sounds every hour, but has a photo cell that stops the sound when the room is dark.

I would love to see her run on the Valley Railroad or anywhere else. God intended passenger trains to be headed by Pacifics 4-8-2's or 4-8-4's. A 2-8-0 or a Decapod on a passenger train just does not look historically accurate.


kevin.r.gillespie@verizon.net

> 1246 is a former CPR pacific right? G5
> class? Last I knew this engine came to the
> Valley railroad after the Steamtown auction,
> but some defect was found.

> Would be interested in her detailed history
> since Steamtown. Thanks!

> Joshua

History since Steamtown is simple: CPR G5c, built May 1946, Montreal Locomotive Works. Sold at auction, October 1988, to Railroad Museum of New England, Inc. Moved April 1989 to RMNE's Saybrook Yard (on the Valley Railroad), CT. Placed on display at Essex, 1996.

There was no plan to operate 1246 on the VRR. Steamtown retired 1246 due to firebox problems (the infamous 45-minute cold-to-250 psi fireups in Bellows Falls did a number on the firebox!). The firebox will need extensive work before 1246 can operate-- the rest is the usual work any engine needs after years of operation and years of storage. These issues were known when RMNE bought the locomotive. When the time comes, 1246 will move west to the Naugy.


hpincus@mindspring.com

Don't forget The Cog Railway at Mt. Washington and WMCRR at Clark's Trading Post in NH. The Cog started during the Civil War era and the WMCRR started moving people by steam in 1953, back when steam was still in mainline use in New England. The Clark Brothers (Murray and Ed) saw the writing on the wall and wanted to presrve steam power for future generations. They have run steam ever since with a Heisler and a Climax.

www.thecog.com
www.clarkstradingpost.com

There's the Maine Narrow Gauge RR in Portland and the WW&F in Alna, both of which in Maine.

http://www.mngrr.org/
http://www.wwfry.org/

How about mainline steam in New England. How do today's NE host railroads view steam excursions?

Has anyone ever asked the Guilford Corp. or the MBTA for permission to run steam on their system?

I have this crazy notion that the 3713 could return to North Station to pull MBTA trains through Reading and Winchester. And as long as I'm delerious maybe she could pull Amtrak's Downeaster to Portland...

How about the St.L&A, or MM&A, (or whatever they're being called now) are they opposed to steam? Could the B&ML's Swedish consist travel around Maine?


SJHussar@aol.com

> Mr. Zinn:

> I don't think NIMBY-ism is the issue in
> quaint olde New England. What tourist lines
> are you thinking of? I doubt Hobo has any
> interest in steam power on their regular
> operation. Berkshire Scenic,
> Milford-Bennington, VTR-GMRC have no steam
> power. The active steam operators all have
> locomotives that need cubic yards of
> twenty-dollar bills.

> At the Naugy, we have no NIMBY problems. We
> are currently working on constructing a shop
> building and facility (this weekend's 10
> inches of snow put a bit of a crimp into our
> shop trackage construction!), and once it is
> complete, we can start thinking about 1246
> more realistically. I doubt anyone wants to
> see her restored and running more than I do!
> But, she won't be touched until there is a
> shop, a plan and money in hand to carry out
> the plan. There are too many taken-apart
> chooches out there already. Mr. Zinn, we'll
> save you a seat on the first run! And we'll
> let that "Crystal Ball" guy know
> well in advance, too!!
Howard does this mean I will live longenough to see a 1200 run again? Better to fi re a 1200 than a 2500. btw did you go to train? Was it worth the trip? Or was it just aother railfan weakend as normal? regards bb.

I think Mr. Zinn was thinking of standard-gage, non-insular railroads.... New England has always had operations like the Cog, the Clarks, and now the budding Maine narrow gage revival.

As to operating over Guilford, simply put, no. No excursions, steam or otherwise, over Guilford, period.

Mass Bay RRE has operated on MBTA and Amtrak routes, using MBTA equipment.

One issue with using anything older than Amfleet and F-40s for excursions is that the current railroad environment is not set up for the historic equipment... the personnel that last worked on this old stuff are now retired, the new guys don't know anything about it, and they take the path of least resistance.

Mr. Carey was an extraordinary, shining star of assistance to preservation folks in New England a number of years ago, when it came to moving stuff.

hpincus@mindspring.com

> I have this crazy notion that the 3713 could
> return to North Station to pull MBTA trains
> through Reading and Winchester. And as long
> as I'm delerious maybe she could pull
> Amtrak's Downeaster to Portland...

I know you're joshing but short of a direct order from the POTUS or SOI.. not likely.

superheater@rrmail.com

What New England (or any state east of Ohio) doesn't have is a 4-8-4. However, there's a lot of little steam... If figure 18 steamers ran in New England last year.

Connecticut farm equipment museum steams their 3' line a couple of times a year.

Valley steams a lot.

Clark's Trading Post just fielded a 4 steamer weekend two months ago.

The Cog Railway steams every day it runs.

In Maine, there are 3 permanent 2' steam operations.

Edaville... well... not sure

Add in the Conway Scenic and the B&ML as potentially returning to steam, and maybe even Doc Kendall's Heisler now and then, and you get a picture with some smoke and fire.

As to why there isn't more... I think the answer is pretty obvious... there's no one organized to do it or who needs to do it.

Who needs it? Conway, Hobo, VRS and the MA and CT museums do great with diesels or trolleys. RMNE, as Howard said, is taking a slow and steady approach.

Who's going to do it? The is exactly one group actively restoring exactly one mainline steamer in New England -- 470's MEC 2-8-0 - and that's slow going.

I am sure a group with a plan and some financing could get some northern steam rolling. There have been visitors... NYS&W #142 comes to mind... so maybe that's an immediate opportunity.

Long term, I am sure with the plethora of shortlines in NE, you could barnstorm a nice 4-6-0 all over.

It comes down to money, organization and a leader to come forward.

Rob

rdavis@rypn.org

Another thought...

there is little mainline steam tradition in preservation era New England. If you take out the wanderings of the Steamtown ex CPR steam fleet (which wandered NE when the museum was there) you get a handful of trips with NKP 759 on the CV and the B&M, same for CN #6218 on the CV, Valley #97 ont he VRS in the 60's, NYS&W #142 recently and the Freedom Train.

Other than that, there hasn't been a heck of a lot.

Rob

rdavis@rypn.org

> What New England (or any state east of Ohio)
> doesn't have is a 4-8-4. However, there's a
> lot of little steam... If figure 18 steamers
> ran in New England last year.

> Connecticut farm equipment museum steams
> their 3' line a couple of times a year.

> Valley steams a lot.

> Clark's Trading Post just fielded a 4
> steamer weekend two months ago.

> The Cog Railway steams every day it runs.

> In Maine, there are 3 permanent 2' steam
> operations.

> Edaville... well... not sure

> Add in the Conway Scenic and the B&ML as
> potentially returning to steam, and maybe
> even Doc Kendall's Heisler now and then, and
> you get a picture with some smoke and fire.

> As to why there isn't more... I think the
> answer is pretty obvious... there's no one
> organized to do it or who needs to do it.

> Who needs it? Conway, Hobo, VRS and the MA
> and CT museums do great with diesels or
> trolleys. RMNE, as Howard said, is taking a
> slow and steady approach.

> Who's going to do it? The is exactly one
> group actively restoring exactly one
> mainline steamer in New England -- 470's MEC
> 2-8-0 - and that's slow going.

> I am sure a group with a plan and some
> financing could get some northern steam
> rolling. There have been visitors...
> NYS&W #142 comes to mind... so maybe
> that's an immediate opportunity.

> Long term, I am sure with the plethora of
> shortlines in NE, you could barnstorm a nice
> 4-6-0 all over.

> It comes down to money, organization and a
> leader to come forward.

> Rob

The Valley has one operational locomotive, #97. #40 is undergoing a long-term firebox rebuild and did not operate in 2003, and it is unknown if it will run in 2004.

The MEC 501 project at N. Conway is on hold for now; the 470 Club has spent large sums of money for work that has to be redone, as I was told. Perhaps someone more intimately familiar with that situation would care to comment?

The NYSW 142 appeared on the VTR/GMRC for a feature film-- big checkbook to pay for it. The Naugy would love to host that engine for a few months, but the cost of getting there and back make no economic sense.

Better make sure that ten-wheeler you mentioned can be moved by road (like the Brits do all the time) around the region... remember the "Big G" has many of the rail routes!!!

Wishes don't restore or operate or move locomotives... money does, and the lack of it is why there are few operating standard-gage steam locomotives east of the Hudson and north of New York City.


hpincus@mindspring.com

HP wrote, "Better make sure that ten-wheeler you mentioned can be moved by road (like the Brits do all the time) around the region... remember the "Big G" has many of the rail routes!!!"

Howard, you found out my secret. Since I have been working in NYC the past few months, I have been picking copies of the British magazine Railway Heritage.

There is a large number of 4-6-0's and like-sized machines, most privately owned, that regularly jump around from operation to operation during the year.

It is incredible!

When you look at what is done with steam in Britian vs. what is done here, you get an idea of how different the two cultures are.

Before anyone else buys a copy of RH magazine, be warned. It may make you want to move to the UK, or it may make you really, really sad that they are so far ahead of the US in rail preservation.

They are actually running out of steamers to restore!

Rob



rdavis@rypn.org