I note that the NPS has a set of procedures named the "Historic American Building Survey." Simply stated-this is a mechanism to document historic
buildings by way of sketches, drawings, photos and written descriptions. I suspect that other organizations such as HAER (Historic American Engineering Record) or SIA (Society of Industrial Archeology) may also have developed procedure sets.

The question is: does anything akin to this currently exist within the rail preservation community ?

newhaven0401-NOSPAM-@verizon.net

> The question is: does anything akin to this
> currently exist within the rail preservation
> community ?

No, it doesn't. And this is actually a huge black mark against the community and industry in North America. Similar projects have been successfully undertaken in the UK, Germany, Japan, and even Canada (if one counts the relevant pages in the all-inclusive "Canadian Trackside Guide").

There are token efforts out there, such as Hicks' electric car roster, Dave Conrad's "Steam Locomotive Directory of North America", and two or three steam locomotive rosters and one or two diesel locomotive rosters. In addition, the Railroad Station Historical Society maintains a "mongrelized" database of railroad stations, a combination of various individual efforts (an on the whole still well-done). But the fact remains that no one has directly authorized or taken responsibility for an all-inclusive rail preservation database.

Here are only some of the problems inherent in such a project:

*Who sets up the project, gives it a (hopefully) permanent home, and sets the parameters for the database? Ideally, this would be a perfect project for the national administration of the NRHS, but I'm not holding my breath. R&LHS? The Tourist Railway Assn., which might stand to "benefit" the most from it? The Association of Railway Museums? Do we want professional input? (Is Mr. Dan Kitchen lurking out there somewhere?)

*Who maintains it and gathers reclusive data? I have the basics for such a database sitting in a drawer behind me, but until someone finds a way to pay me for my time, it isn't going into a database anytime soon. Once a solid database is established, however, maintenance is relatively low-key--the job function could be built part-time into the duties of a paid staffer somewhere. (Now tell me, how many places even *have* any paid staffer to do this kind of thing?)

*Minor technical problems will always appear. Is the railroad abbreviated "CP" or "CPR"? How, if at all, do we abbreviate lesser railroads that never received reporting marks--like the Calumet & Hecla, Quincy & Torch Lake, or WW&F? Do we even use ampersands? This alone will require a whole "style manual".

*There are always possible quibbles over whether certain items are actually "preserved", or even what should be included (Trolleys? Stations?). I know several items right down the street from me that are "preserved" but only waiting to donate parts to other projects. What about that wooden NP car body described/pictured below? UP's operable Centennial diesel or E9's? The streetcar bodies in a field near Delphi, Ohio? The P&LE wooden diner next to them? The EBT hoppers with trees growing through them in Mount Union?

All I am giving you, however, are the "excuses" why it hasn't been done already. There is no obvious profit motive to produce such a project, so the only hope is either for "angels" to endow the organization to unite the various individual efforts into one database, or for someone to lobby the R&LHS, NRHS, etc. to take the initiative to endow such a project.

Anyone?


LNER4472-NOSPAM-@bcpl.net

David,

This idea has been noted here and elsewhere. It is a lot of work.

In the maritime field we have the International register of Historic Ships and for small craft the
Union List of Museum small Craft.

Railroad equipment preservation comes in so many variations that it will not be easy to define.

Museums of course are the simplist, but is tourist railroad, private car operation, the small town information center in a Caboose (often without any lettering) preservation?

My personal pick is passenger cars. If we knew what and where such as Frank Hicks list or Andrew Youngs Book we would really have something special!

For a start we should encourage every museum to post a roster of their equipment on their web page.

Ted Miles

ted_miles@nps.gov

Sandy,

As one who has documented 31,000 steam engines worldwide in four databases, and collected roughly 3,000 pictures for said project, I can vouch for everything you stated.

Some more thoughts:

* Don't forget Roger Kirkpatrick's captive caboose list in your list of existing lists; it is a nice resource.

* A "home" could be a printed document, an online database, or a CD-ROM. Each has it's own advantages and disadvantages:
1. Some people are still intimidated by computers, and prefer to have a book they can hold in their hands, and easily carry with them and place it on a shelf when it is finished. Disadvantages: It is obsolete the minute it is printed, and is difficult to search. A complete update costs as much as the original copy; otherwise, you have to search through multiple partial update documents to find the latest information.
2. An online database a few years ago was a expensive proposition, it is less so today. It could be free for everyone to access, and could be updated instantly. If designed right, it can be easily searched and sorted; and can be designed to be accessed by any type of computer. Often, you can contribute your pictures to an online database for the world to see. Disadvantages: You must have an internet connection to access it; access speed depends on speed of your computer and internet connection.
3. At the time I started my "Surviving World Steam Project", diskettes and later CD-ROMs were the cheapest way to go. (Raw material costs are less than 2-3 dollars per copy.) Once the database is installed; you have everything you need on your computer, and if you have a portable computer, you can take it with you in the field. While the data is obsolete the minute you burn it on a CD-ROM; because it is electronic, you can update the data (if designed right.) And, you can add your pictures to the database without having to share them with the world (once again, if designed right.) Disadvantages: Windows compatible computers have become the main if not the only platform suppported; otherwise, you have to double your resources if you want to make versions for Macintosh, Unix, etc. available.

All three of these require tons of time and some funds to make available. And choosing any of the above three will please some potential users, alienate others.

* One of the biggest problems in building and maintaining a project like this from multiple sources is weeding out duplicates. Often, you are working from partial data, and it is amazing how much "stuff" including locomotives and rolling stock moves around. Even more a problem when the data you are working with is years old. J. David's work is even more impressive in that he has personally verified every entry, and it is free from duplicates.

* There is really not a whole of individuals who are interested in this material; especially if they are asked to pay even a modest fee for it. Most people have only a casual interest in locomotives, stations, etc.; and are not interested in a searchable database. Given the cost of putting it all together versus the attention and revenue it recieves, that is why it needs government or other funding/backing to maintain it perpetually. It will not pay for itself.

* I have also found that if you attempt to do this as anything other than government or society-funded project, you are treated as a "commercial" project, and some individuals/orgainizations will not work with you for fear you will profit from their contributions.

-James Hefner
Hebrews 10:20a

> No, it doesn't. And this is actually a huge
> black mark against the community and
> industry in North America. Similar projects
> have been successfully undertaken in the UK,
> Germany, Japan, and even Canada (if one
> counts the relevant pages in the
> all-inclusive "Canadian Trackside
> Guide").

> There are token efforts out there, such as
> Hicks' electric car roster, Dave Conrad's
> "Steam Locomotive Directory of North
> America", and two or three steam
> locomotive rosters and one or two diesel
> locomotive rosters. In addition, the
> Railroad Station Historical Society
> maintains a "mongrelized" database
> of railroad stations, a combination of
> various individual efforts (an on the whole
> still well-done). But the fact remains that
> no one has directly authorized or taken
> responsibility for an all-inclusive rail
> preservation database.

> Here are only some of the problems inherent
> in such a project:

> *Who sets up the project, gives it a
> (hopefully) permanent home, and sets the
> parameters for the database? Ideally, this
> would be a perfect project for the national
> administration of the NRHS, but I'm not
> holding my breath. R&LHS? The Tourist
> Railway Assn., which might stand to
> "benefit" the most from it? The
> Association of Railway Museums? Do we want
> professional input? (Is Mr. Dan Kitchen
> lurking out there somewhere?)

> *Who maintains it and gathers reclusive
> data? I have the basics for such a database
> sitting in a drawer behind me, but until
> someone finds a way to pay me for my time,
> it isn't going into a database anytime soon.
> Once a solid database is established,
> however, maintenance is relatively
> low-key--the job function could be built
> part-time into the duties of a paid staffer
> somewhere. (Now tell me, how many places
> even *have* any paid staffer to do this kind
> of thing?)

> *Minor technical problems will always
> appear. Is the railroad abbreviated
> "CP" or "CPR"? How, if
> at all, do we abbreviate lesser railroads
> that never received reporting marks--like
> the Calumet & Hecla, Quincy & Torch
> Lake, or WW&F? Do we even use
> ampersands? This alone will require a whole
> "style manual".

> *There are always possible quibbles over
> whether certain items are actually
> "preserved", or even what should
> be included (Trolleys? Stations?). I know
> several items right down the street from me
> that are "preserved" but only
> waiting to donate parts to other projects.
> What about that wooden NP car body
> described/pictured below? UP's operable
> Centennial diesel or E9's? The streetcar
> bodies in a field near Delphi, Ohio? The
> P&LE wooden diner next to them? The EBT
> hoppers with trees growing through them in
> Mount Union?

> All I am giving you, however, are the
> "excuses" why it hasn't been done
> already. There is no obvious profit motive
> to produce such a project, so the only hope
> is either for "angels" to endow
> the organization to unite the various
> individual efforts into one database, or for
> someone to lobby the R&LHS, NRHS, etc.
> to take the initiative to endow such a
> project.

> Anyone?


Surviving World Steam Project
james@survivingworldsteam.com

don't forget, Jay Reed keeps track of the Industrial Locomotive end of things for us also. Lottsa historic stuff out there that has never seen the inside of a "museum".

lamontdc@adelphia.net

I just have a couple of minor thoughts about some of the problems you mentioned, from the perspective of someone who has undertaken a "token effort" in this field. :-)

> *Minor technical problems will always
> appear. Is the railroad abbreviated
> "CP" or "CPR"? How, if
> at all, do we abbreviate lesser railroads
> that never received reporting marks--like
> the Calumet & Hecla, Quincy & Torch
> Lake, or WW&F? Do we even use
> ampersands? This alone will require a whole
> "style manual".

I don't think this is a large hang-up. Any database would have to have a "key" somewhere at the back correlating abbreviations to actual company names, and if that is used then the abbreviation could be anything the database coordinator wants - as long as it's internally consistent. Who cares if "CP" is referred to as something wierd like "CANPRR", just as long as you can look it up in the index?

> *There are always possible quibbles over
> whether certain items are actually
> "preserved", or even what should
> be included (Trolleys? Stations?).

This is one thing I've thought about at great length when preparing my roster. A few thoughts are spelled out in the "criteria" section of the Preserved Electric Cars website here:

http://www.bera.org/pnaerc-details.html

For my own purposes, I use a rather unofficial definition of "preserved" as "likely to be around in 25 (or some other number) years". This also encompasses all museum collections even though, as you mentioned, some cars are retained as parts sources (I tend to mention this fact where it is known). In the end, however, there are ALWAYS going to be pieces of equipment that sit astride the fence and require a judgement call to be categorized. I think this is a necessary evil, but that with enough consideration you can avoid any wild inconsistencies. As for what should be included, that's simply up to the database maintainer. Andrew Young excluded mainline railroad equipment in his book "Veteran & Vintage Transit" but included buses and trolley buses; I've excluded buses and trolley buses but included mainline electric equipment.

Frank Hicks

Preserved North American Electric Railway Cars
F-Hicks@wiu.edu

>> *Minor technical problems will always
>> appear. Is the railroad abbreviated
>> "CP" or "CPR"? How, if
>> at all, do we abbreviate lesser railroads
>> that never received reporting marks--like
>> the Calumet & Hecla, Quincy & Torch
>> Lake, or WW&F? Do we even use
>> ampersands? This alone will require a whole
>> "style manual".

> I don't think this is a large hang-up. Any
> database would have to have a
> "key" somewhere at the back
> correlating abbreviations to actual company
> names, and if that is used then the
> abbreviation could be anything the database
> coordinator wants - as long as it's
> internally consistent. Who cares if
> "CP" is referred to as something
> wierd like "CANPRR", just as long
> as you can look it up in the index?

I have experienced this problem in entering from multiple sources into my multiple, somewhat mostly unrelated databases. For example, entering a Canada Pacific Railroad ferry in "Surviving World Steamships", and making sure I use the same abbreviation as I did in "Surviving World Steam Locomotives".

The same also applies to builders. For example, do you enter "Baldwin" as the builder, or "Baldwin Locomotive Works (Philadephia)". The common ones are obvious, some of the more obscure builders, less so.

But even more difficult when maintaining (or even cross referencing) multiple databases using multiple sources is being consistant with the location. I found in the past couple of weeks that I entered one location as "Bristol Industrial Museum, Dockside, Bristol, UK" in "Surviving World Steamships"; "Bristol Harbour Railway, Bristol, Avon, UK" in "Surviving World Steam Locomotives"; and "Bristol Industrial Museum, Bristol, UK" in "Surviving World Steam Vehicles". (This one museum has a steam tug, two tank engines, a steam fire engine, and a stationary steam crane.)

Once completed, this also makes the combined project more usefull than a collection of seperately maintained databases, even if as my case there are still some "warts" to get out. It is neat, for example, to see the variety of equipment at a particular location, or the variety of equipment built by one manufacturer.

And I agree that the content of the database is up to the database maintainer. Some are only interesting in working (not just operational), others in only preserved, still other nut cases like me try to track everything for which there is at least a large pile of remains. :)

(One of my long time contacts in the UK is working on a database of every single steam locomotive ever built worldwide. I don't know if he will ever finish it, but last time I talked to him, he was making good progress.)

In closing, once you get something this comprehensive in a single electronic database, you can pull some neat statistics from it using common analytical tools such as Excel and Access. For example, I have taken all of my records to data, and combined them in a single database. I then plotted them by year built, with seperate bars by type of engine (locomotive, vehicle, vessel). It is neat watching how they rise and fall together up until the Great Depression in 1931, which lead to most of the steam vehicle builders either closing down or switching entirely to I.C. vehicle production. Steam locomotive and vessel production spiked during 1943-1944, when wartime production was trying to keep pace with the destruction of equipment, while production of steam locomotives in Russia, India, and China keep the keep the bar graph for locomotives going until the end of mass production in China in 1990. With the exception of nuclear and a few conventional warships as well as LNG tankers, steamship production ended after a burst of new tanker construction in the 1970s and 1980s.

Or, to sort the "master database" by year, then show only the pictures, and scroll through history, watching the concurrent development of locomotives, vehicles, and steamships through time. It makes it much easier to understand the relationships between various historical artifacts over time. The data has a whole then has more use as a research tool then each seperate part of the database. But such a "master database" requires large amounts of disk space or processor power (or it used to, my "master database" runs slowly but acceptable on my two year old Compaq), and contains more information than some users would be interested in. Good search tools and filters do allow you to zero in on what you are looking for, however.

-James Hefner
Hebrews 10:20a

Surviving World Steam Project
james@survivingworldsteam.com

The NRHS was/is doing something like this.

"The Historic Railway Structures Survey is an NRHS initiative to catalogue of existing railway structures of all types and create a lasting historical record."

The effort was/is coordinated by:
Richard B. Shulby, AIA
Dir. Historic Structures Surveys
11017 Spice Hollow Court
Charlotte, NC 28277
e-mail: Rshulby@aol.com

I don't know the current status of this project.


Historic Railway Structures Survey
jdent1@optonline.net

Thanks for the feedback....

> The NRHS was/is doing something like this.

> "The Historic Railway Structures Survey
> is an NRHS initiative to catalogue of
> existing railway structures of all types and
> create a lasting historical record."

> The effort was/is coordinated by:
> Richard B. Shulby, AIA
> Dir. Historic Structures Surveys
> 11017 Spice Hollow Court
> Charlotte, NC 28277
> e-mail: Rshulby@aol.com

> I don't know the current status of this
> project.


newhaven0401-NOSPAM-@verizon.net

Developing a national database of preserved equipment and structures is a topic that has interested me for many years. I would argue that the time to do such a project is better now than at any other time in the past. Internet resources are tremendous--equipment lists and rosters abound across the net and pulling together the material is just a matter of establishing parameters, obtaining some grant funding and pulling together the material into a useable format. Verification of the data is going to be the hard part, especially when equipment is moved or sold, or when historical data is contradictatory or cannot be verified without sources noted.

I have always said that ARM should step up to the plate and take the initative projects like these, since publicly, at least, they present the image as a flagship organization representing the best interests of railway museums. Other projects that ARM could undertake include:

- Establish a Collections Management committee that could disseminate material on processing archival collections, establish a Chenhall list of cataloguing terms pertaining to railroad artifacts, how to care for railroad objects, etc. Let's see articles in RMQ on practical hands-on stuff rather than the foamer news talk about what this museum is doing or regurgiation of club newsletters, etc. Doing so still makes us look clubbish, clannish and ameteurish to the outside world. Think outside the box for a change and join the mainstream museum community! I have found the railfan community to be apathetic and nonresponsive when it comes to taking the initative on documentation with railway museums.

- Address standards of paint research (as evidenced by the Pullman green thread on this board) and disseminate the information in a published format to the membership either in RMQ or in a stand-alone publication; there is so much confusion on doing historical paint research for equipment restoration--many times the info is contradictory, based on second-hand info, and it often fails to draw on primary sources; get to the trush, publish and disseminate it for all to use.

-Publish handbooks on preserving unrestored equipment. Dave Conrad's displayed steam locomotives pamphlet is a good example. But what about pointers for preserving other types equipment (rolling stock) that probably won't be restored anytime soon--tips on sealing windows, tarring roofs, building wooden cocoons. Draw on real experiences. Non-existent financial resources and Mother Nature, in my opinion, are the two biggest threats facing railway museum collections today and into the future.

My list could go on and on. We need to step up to the plate and make these things happen rather than passively debate and argue on a message board. I'm fired up to start writing articles for RMQ so I may put my pen where my mouth is. There's no reason why a national inventory of preserved railway equipment could happen. Don't count on NRHS, R&LHS or railfan efforts to take the initative because it simply won't happen. It must be an independent project with committed people and resources.

Have a look at ARM's Recommended Practices. There is a lot of information available here.



ARM Recommended Practices