Within the body of LSE167 unfaded paint samples of the "orange" and "yellow" used on the car were found. The orange, described in the literature as big four orange, matches OHSA danger orange and is fairly easy to get a paint for. The yellow, for which several descriptions carry the term "rich cream" matches OHSA danger yellow. The yellow, used around the window strip is also used on the roof of the front and rear vestibules and is a very vivid yellow even in its exposed state. The question I have is, can the materials used in 78 year old "rich cream" paint cause it to turn more yellow ??? I do know that the replacement of lead chromate in current yellows causes it to turn white as it ages.

lamontdc@adelphia.net

Although at only 78 years it may not be the case with this car, older linseed oil paints darken in the absence of light. To get a true color you have to allow samples some time under bright light, usually less than an hour, frequently only 20 minutes.

The "rich cream" we found from 1904 on our passenger car were a yellow cream, but still definaltly a cream.

Randy Hees

> Within the body of LSE167 unfaded paint
> samples of the "orange" and
> "yellow" used on the car were
> found. The orange, described in the
> literature as big four orange, matches OHSA
> danger orange and is fairly easy to get a
> paint for. The yellow, for which several
> descriptions carry the term "rich
> cream" matches OHSA danger yellow. The
> yellow, used around the window strip is also
> used on the roof of the front and rear
> vestibules and is a very vivid yellow even
> in its exposed state. The question I have
> is, can the materials used in 78 year old
> "rich cream" paint cause it to
> turn more yellow ??? I do know that the
> replacement of lead chromate in current
> yellows causes it to turn white as it ages.


http://www.spcrr.org
hees@ix.netcom.com

The question I have
> is, can the materials used in 78 year old
> "rich cream" paint cause it to
> turn more yellow ???

If varnish were applied on top of the paint, it can cause quite a color shift as it ages. Varnish tends to turn brown with age.

Sand down a little way and see what color you have.

Railroad shop workers were creatures of habit. I have seen varnish applied on top of synthetic enamel.

fkrock@pacbell.net

> The question I have

> If varnish were applied on top of the paint,
> it can cause quite a color shift as it ages.
> Varnish tends to turn brown with age.

> In the restoration of the Milwaukee, Lakeshore and Western coach, the restorationist submitted samples of the original paint to spectral analysis and I think some electron microscope analysis to determine the original paint color and composition.


breher1257@aol.com

Commenting on some of the other responses, if linseed oil based paints achieve their 'stable' color after exposure to light it is very likely that the protected areas you discovered were already exposed before the car trim or whatever was replaced over them. It would have taken longer than that to dry.

As to the use of an electron microscope I doubt that would have been of use in determining the color since it looks at items in a scale that is designed to ferret out structure and shape. Beyond that the next level is an atomic microscope but again structure and shape, in this case perhaps clues at the molecular level can be determined. Even ordinary microscopy can determine the number of layers, and then a spectral analysis should yield colors.

How good is good enough? I am considering a car out in service fresh from the factory or out of the shop was likely that way only on that day. Weathering, aging, exposure are pretty much continuous processes yielding a spectrum of paint color perceptions, often depending on the lighting.

Which brings us to the next level of authenticity after we succeed (we hope) in matching EXACTLY the original color. Without the same paint vehicles, carriers, hardeners, varnish and resin content, solvents, and topcoats if any, will the new paint job age and drift in the same way?

As much as I would like to be perfect on all restorations this is one area where I doubt any of us can be exact and reproduce our artifact's finish, legally or illegally in light of environmental laws, and there are some compromises or solutions that we must accept as the best we can do.

Bob Kutella


68trolley@comcast.net

> As much as I would like to be perfect on all
> restorations this is one area where I doubt
> any of us can be exact and reproduce our
> artifact's finish, legally or illegally in
> light of environmental laws, and there are
> some compromises or solutions that we must
> accept as the best we can do.

> Bob Kutella

1. thank you all for your responses ...and Bob for the summary.
2. the first reason I asked the question was indeed to provide a sort of color chart for those interested in restoring equipment or modeling the Lake Shore Electric Railway. We still don't have a handle on the "red", "gray", "black", or "brown" used.
3. The second reason I asked is so that some sort of historical documentation could be made of another detail of the LSE operation. It is amazing how much has been lost or forgotten in 65 years including obvious things such as where the line ran ...how it was built and the changes that occured during its life. The equipment changes, rebuilds and modifications have never been documented ... and are especially difficult to figure out. Buildings and grounds are a little easier and less abstract, until you look into the whys, wherefores and changes ...this is turning out to be dynamic also. All part of contemporary archeology, and a fascinating puzzle.


lamontdc@adelphia.net