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Townshend Shay
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Author:  Bob Yarger [ Sun Dec 28, 2003 9:28 am ]
Post subject:  Townshend Shay
At Townshend, Tennessee.

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=34291
ryarger@rypn.org
Author:  Don C. [ Sun Dec 28, 2003 10:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Townshend Shay
> At Townshend, Tennessee.

A question for Jim Wrinn......is this the "display" Shay from the Bear Creek Jct that you and I had the discussion concerning, or is this a sister locomotive?

Don C.

milw261@sbcglobal.net
Author:  Kevin Gilliam [ Sun Dec 28, 2003 11:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Townshend Shay
> A question for Jim Wrinn......is this the
> "display" Shay from the Bear Creek
> Jct that you and I had the discussion
> concerning, or is this a sister locomotive?

> Don C.

I can answer this one since Jim is SUPPOSED to be working on his book at a feverish pace! ;)

Yes....2147 was the shay parked out on US 129 at the entrance to Bear Creek Jct. The Little River group acquired the locomotive in 1982 when "GCRR V.3" tried to sell the engine off for scrap to get money for restoring 1925.

Interestingly enough, the Little River group also got the trucks from the caboose that was behind the 2147 at BCJ at the same time. The caboose itself did not survive however, even though it DID exist at the time 2147 and trucks were removed. For some reason, the Little River group at the time did not want the caboose to go with the engine.

Kevin

k_gilliam@bellsouth.net
Author:  Don C. [ Sun Dec 28, 2003 12:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Townshend Shay
> I can answer this one since Jim is SUPPOSED
> to be working on his book at a feverish
> pace! ;)

> Yes....2147 was the shay parked out on US
> 129 at the entrance to Bear Creek Jct. The
> Little River group acquired the locomotive
> in 1982 when "GCRR V.3" tried to
> sell the engine off for scrap to get money
> for restoring 1925.

> Interestingly enough, the Little River group
> also got the trucks from the caboose that
> was behind the 2147 at BCJ at the same time.
> The caboose itself did not survive however,
> even though it DID exist at the time 2147
> and trucks were removed. For some reason,
> the Little River group at the time did not
> want the caboose to go with the engine.

> Kevin

Kevin,
Thanks for the information. The caboose appeared to be a homemade creation. Was it some logging/shortline kitbash job?

Don C.

http://www.261.com
milw261@sbcglobal.net
Author:  John Bohon [ Sun Dec 28, 2003 12:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Townshend Shay
> Kevin,
> Thanks for the information. The caboose
> appeared to be a homemade creation. Was it
> some logging/shortline kitbash job?

> Don C.

The caboose was homemade in the Bemis shop but strictly for the display at Bear Creek. It went to Tennessee with the shay. I do not think the 2147 was ever in serious danger of being scrapped. At that point the scenic railroad and the Graham County Railroad were in completely different hands. The owners of the historic equipment were well aware of what they had and were pretty protective of it.

jhbohon@yahoo.com
Author:  Don C. [ Sun Dec 28, 2003 2:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Townshend Shay
> The caboose was homemade in the Bemis shop
> but strictly for the display at Bear Creek.
> It went to Tennessee with the shay. I do not
> think the 2147 was ever in serious danger of
> being scrapped. At that point the scenic
> railroad and the Graham County Railroad were
> in completely different hands. The owners of
> the historic equipment were well aware of
> what they had and were pretty protective of
> it.

John,
Thanks for the follow-up. I suspected that it was something that was cobbled together for display purposes. Now, what happened to the heavyweight car (diner?) painted in NKP colors? What it the "Nantahala Gorge"? I only saw the operation once in 1968; a whirlwind stop on the way to Atlanta for a July 4th weekend SR 630 trip. Everything was shutdown for the day as we arrived quite late in the afternoon.

Don C.

http://www.261.com
milw261@sbcglobal.net
Author:  John Bohon [ Sun Dec 28, 2003 2:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Townshend Shay
After the railroad closed for the last time in 1983 the owners of the Bear Creek operation began divesting the property. Eventually the Bear Creek site was sold to a developer who envisioned a sort of railroad related vacation and retirement housing community. Things were slow to develop and today there are still only a half dozen or so homes including the depot turned residence. Unfortunately all of the remaining cars were scrapped including the NKP dinner. It was a sad site to see such a nice car cut up. When it was refurbished and sent to the GC the car had everything new or rebuilt including new wheelsets and brakeshoes. The car was so complete that it even had a little brass NKP fire extinguisher behind glass in the front of the dinning area.

John

jhbohon@yahoo.com
Author:  Kevin Gilliam [ Mon Dec 29, 2003 1:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Townshend Shay
> The caboose was homemade in the Bemis shop
> but strictly for the display at Bear Creek.
> It went to Tennessee with the shay.

Any guesses on what happened to it? Jim Thurston of the Little River group said they never had the caboose, but they do have the trucks (and wish they had the caboose now). He wasn't with the group at the time of the acquisition however. I'm guessing the caboose body ended up being dismantled or sold for scrap at some point. Anyone know the fate here?

Kevin

k_gilliam@bellsouth.net
Author:  jimwrinn [ Mon Dec 29, 2003 1:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Townshend Shay
Not much to add here to this one, except a note or two:

The 2147 was on Babcock's lines at some point, and wrecked pretty well on the Tennessee side of the Smokies--exact opposite ridge from where the Bemis logging lines were... just a few years earlier I recall.

There was a nice photo of the engine in wrecked condition in the Bear Creek "museum" -- a boxcar full of enlarged photos. Something about showing how dangerous it was to be in the logging railroad business.

The 2147 and 112 were both brought via truck to Robbinsville from Conasauga, Tenn., where they'd been at the lumber co. Upon arrival, it was determined that 112's cab was junk so the two cabs were swapped... so the cab you see on 2147 today is actually the cab off a 2-truck 60-ton Shay from the 20s, not a teens three trucker.

The 2147 was a "display" piece, but over the years contributed parts to keep the other GC Shays going. If I recall right, one of the delays for the final lot of outbound furniture in June of 1975 was a walk up the road by Dan Ranger and Henry Chandler to retrieve some valve stem packing for the 1925!


http://nctrans.org
Wrinnbo@aol.com
Author:  John Bohon [ Mon Dec 29, 2003 8:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Townshend Shay
> Any guesses on what happened to it? Jim
> Thurston of the Little River group said they
> never had the caboose, but they do have the
> trucks (and wish they had the caboose now).
> He wasn't with the group at the time of the
> acquisition however. I'm guessing the
> caboose body ended up being dismantled or
> sold for scrap at some point. Anyone know
> the fate here?

> Kevin

The caboose did go to Townsend. I helped load both the engine and the caboose. The caboose and water tank went on one lowboy trailer and the engine on another. They were loaded in that order off of the west end of the display track. A sign was hung on the engine saying something like "Little River 2147 Going Home To Townsend". Sometime after they departed an aircompressor was rigged to the boiler and a whistle installed. As the engine was being hauled into town they were blowing the whistle and from what I heard made quite an entrance.

As for what happened to the caboose I think you are looking at it in the photo at the top of this link. I am comparing the one in that photo to a photo I have of the old Bear Creek cab after it arrived in TN and they look very similar. If this is not the old Bear Creek cab where did it come from?

The photo of the wrecked 2147 was moved along with the rest of the photos to the walls of the depot near the ceiling when we reopened the railroad in 1982. Among Tom Ebright's instructions to me concerning the removal of the 2147 was to give them this photo. I think this was done when they came a couple of weeks before the move to finalize their plans. As I recall it showed the 2147 nose down a bank and near or in the stream below. I think the engine had a wooden cab in the photo.

In addition to the railroad equipment the Little River group also got the Frick portable steam engine and sawmill that was used at Bear Creek. Intended only to demonstrate sawmilling this mill was pressed into service when the Bemis mill burned in 1967 and sawed much of the lumber to build the new mill.

Looking at the photo of 2147 above I think she is still wearing the headlight Ted Burdette fashioned for the engine out of a five gallon can. It was was a very convincing replica. To correct another item from above I think the 2147 actually left Bear Creek in 1983 instead of 1982. I am pretty sure it was after Wayne Laepple left the railroad and that happened in mid 1983.

John

jhbohon@yahoo.com
Author:  G. W. Laepple [ Mon Dec 29, 2003 10:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Townshend Shay
> The caboose did go to Townsend. I helped
> load both the engine and the caboose. The
> caboose and water tank went on one lowboy
> trailer and the engine on another. They were
> loaded in that order off of the west end of
> the display track. A sign was hung on the
> engine saying something like "Little
> River 2147 Going Home To Townsend".
> Sometime after they departed an
> aircompressor was rigged to the boiler and a
> whistle installed. As the engine was being
> hauled into town they were blowing the
> whistle and from what I heard made quite an
> entrance.

> As for what happened to the caboose I think
> you are looking at it in the photo at the
> top of this link. I am comparing the one in
> that photo to a photo I have of the old Bear
> Creek cab after it arrived in TN and they
> look very similar. If this is not the old
> Bear Creek cab where did it come from?

> The photo of the wrecked 2147 was moved
> along with the rest of the photos to the
> walls of the depot near the ceiling when we
> reopened the railroad in 1982. Among Tom
> Ebright's instructions to me concerning the
> removal of the 2147 was to give them this
> photo. I think this was done when they came
> a couple of weeks before the move to
> finalize their plans. As I recall it showed
> the 2147 nose down a bank and near or in the
> stream below. I think the engine had a
> wooden cab in the photo.

> In addition to the railroad equipment the
> Little River group also got the Frick
> portable steam engine and sawmill that was
> used at Bear Creek. Intended only to
> demonstrate sawmilling this mill was pressed
> into service when the Bemis mill burned in
> 1967 and sawed much of the lumber to build
> the new mill.

> Looking at the photo of 2147 above I think
> she is still wearing the headlight Ted
> Burdette fashioned for the engine out of a
> five gallon can. It was was a very
> convincing replica. To correct another item
> from above I think the 2147 actually left
> Bear Creek in 1983 instead of 1982. I am
> pretty sure it was after Wayne Laepple left
> the railroad and that happened in mid 1983.

> John
I think it was the early spring of 1983, as I was there when it was moved. I left the GCRR in April of 1983.

K4s1361@hotmail.com
Author:  Kevin Gilliam [ Tue Dec 30, 2003 12:56 pm ]
Post subject:  the mysterious Bear Creek Junction caboose
> As for what happened to the caboose I think
> you are looking at it in the photo at the
> top of this link. I am comparing the one in
> that photo to a photo I have of the old Bear
> Creek cab after it arrived in TN and they
> look very similar. If this is not the old
> Bear Creek cab where did it come from?

Trying to find out the source of that particular caboose....but it is definitely NOT the caboose that was at BCJ. I personally never got to see BCJ (or anywhere else there) when the tracks were in place, much less any equipment. I do have a very good pic of the BCJ caboose from around 1968ish and unless they added about 15-20ft to it along with some windows, there is no chance it is the same one.

Kevin

k_gilliam@bellsouth.net
Author:  Mike Stillwell [ Tue Dec 30, 2003 1:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Townshend Shay - GCRR's real cab
Hye John, Did The GCRR's regular caboose survive to closing of the RR. I read in a Trains magazine a while back, that GSMRR aquired the open air cars when they started their operation. There was a line about painting them up so quickly, that the first riders got paint on thier clothes.
I always wondered if they saved the cab as well.

Thanks - Mike

> The caboose did go to Townsend. I helped
> load both the engine and the caboose. The
> caboose and water tank went on one lowboy
> trailer and the engine on another. They were
> loaded in that order off of the west end of
> the display track. A sign was hung on the
> engine saying something like "Little
> River 2147 Going Home To Townsend".
> Sometime after they departed an
> aircompressor was rigged to the boiler and a
> whistle installed. As the engine was being
> hauled into town they were blowing the
> whistle and from what I heard made quite an
> entrance.

> As for what happened to the caboose I think
> you are looking at it in the photo at the
> top of this link. I am comparing the one in
> that photo to a photo I have of the old Bear
> Creek cab after it arrived in TN and they
> look very similar. If this is not the old
> Bear Creek cab where did it come from?

> The photo of the wrecked 2147 was moved
> along with the rest of the photos to the
> walls of the depot near the ceiling when we
> reopened the railroad in 1982. Among Tom
> Ebright's instructions to me concerning the
> removal of the 2147 was to give them this
> photo. I think this was done when they came
> a couple of weeks before the move to
> finalize their plans. As I recall it showed
> the 2147 nose down a bank and near or in the
> stream below. I think the engine had a
> wooden cab in the photo.

> In addition to the railroad equipment the
> Little River group also got the Frick
> portable steam engine and sawmill that was
> used at Bear Creek. Intended only to
> demonstrate sawmilling this mill was pressed
> into service when the Bemis mill burned in
> 1967 and sawed much of the lumber to build
> the new mill.

> Looking at the photo of 2147 above I think
> she is still wearing the headlight Ted
> Burdette fashioned for the engine out of a
> five gallon can. It was was a very
> convincing replica. To correct another item
> from above I think the 2147 actually left
> Bear Creek in 1983 instead of 1982. I am
> pretty sure it was after Wayne Laepple left
> the railroad and that happened in mid 1983.

> John


Yenko117@yahoo.com
Author:  jimwrinn [ Tue Dec 30, 2003 3:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Townshend Shay - GCRR's real cab
> Hye John, Did The GCRR's regular caboose
> survive to closing of the RR.

Mike, I think the 10, an ex-L&N cab, is now in private ownership in Whittier, N.C., off rails. It never went to GSMR though,and the open cars were burned for scrap--the FRA man didn't care for a lot of their features.

Wrinnbo@aol.com
Author:  Kevin Gilliam [ Tue Dec 30, 2003 3:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Townshend Shay - GCRR's real cab
> Hye John, Did The GCRR's regular caboose
> survive to closing of the RR. I read in a
> Trains magazine a while back, that GSMRR
> aquired the open air cars when they started
> their operation. There was a line about
> painting them up so quickly, that the first
> riders got paint on thier clothes.
> I always wondered if they saved the cab as
> well.

Nope...caboose got "accidentally" burned during the scrapping of the Bear Creek Junction equipment in 1987. There were efforts to preserve it, but the fire ended that. See further comments below...

On the subject of random GC pieces...I've heard rumors of some caboose being sold to a private individual in the Whittier area. I've never seen anything driving through there and never seen anything to substantiate those rumors either.

There was at least one caboose in the BCJ equipment at one time, but I don't know whether it lasted till end end or not. If memory (and pictures) serve correctly...the caboose used on the tourist trains was ex-L&N and the one in the BCJ museum appears to be ex-SR. I'm sure some of the other people can add to this. Which one got burned, I'm not 100% sure of.

On the topic of the passenger cars, as far as I know, GSMR ended up scrapping them at some point. They were used the first season (and plenty of pictures to show it), but were not used after that. I'm guessing they were dismantled somewhere around late 1980s or early 1990s.

Kevin

k_gilliam@bellsouth.net
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