Hello All I was refered to this group in hopes of finding a little information on a small steam engine that my diving team has found in an old lead mine. The mine is north of Joplin, MO and was abandoned in the 40's when all the tunnels started to flood out. Several pieces of equipment were left to the rising waters, one being a small steam engine that was used to pull the ore carts.
well this year we found it in 170' of water in what is called the round around room. We have video, and I hope soon to have a still picture removed to post if anyone wants to see it. Thing about it is that we have no idea who or when it was built, horsepower, ratings, etc. Our team hosts a conference every year and this year the train will be part of it. If I could get my hands on some working photos or any other info I can make this a very interesting presention.

The train is 12' to 15' long. The engine is 3 parts, front (boiler?) middle (firebox) and operator platform. The front barrel is maybe 4' to 5' across and is missing a 1.5' round end cap that was unbolted and removed, story is that it had the engine numbers and was cut into 3 pieces and given to people. All construction is of rivets. There are 3 stacks on top. One appears to be the sand hopper with tube leading to wheels. The wheels are mostly covered in mud, but the drive arm is visible. The operator end is 4'x5' maybe and appears to be an open cab stand up type situation. There is a cable handrail , one lever up through the floor and a few other rusted knobs. At the operators feet appears to be an opening for the firebox and is 2'x 1' or so. Thank you for any help on any history or information for this mini train.
Thank You Brian Moore
OCDA Ozark Cave Diving Alliance
www.ocda.org

bdm@mindspring.com

Hi Brian;

Is the engine you are referring to a former St. Joseph Lead Co. in the Bonne Terre Mine, Bonne Terre, MO? If so, I have featured an underwater picture of it on my "Surviving World Steam Locomotive" CD-ROM for some time now. If so, I was not aware it was that small; I thought it was a full size engine.

It is lying on it's side, along with a length or rail. It is a 4-4-0; that is, it has four small pilot wheels in the front (under the smokebox) and four larger driving wheels under the boiler. The running board down the side of the boiler is basically an open grate.

It still has it's connecting rods between the driving wheels, but appears to missing the driving rods from the front cylinder to the front pair of driving wheels. Where you would expect to find the front cylinders now has some sort of assembly with four knobs on it. It almost looks like it was converted to stationary steam service.

The trailing pair of pilot wheels are much closer to the leading pair of driving wheels than you would normally find; but that may have been done as part of the "conversion". The smokebox used to have a number plate with the number "07" on it.

I thought it was a three-foot guage engine; but given you description, it sounds more like a 12" to 15" guage engine. I don't think it is a Crown; it might be a homebuilt locomotive, an International Miniature Railway Co. locomotive, or an Ottoway.

It would also be interesting if it was indeed ussed to haul ore; it would be a rare instance where what we consider to be an Amusement Park locomotive was actually used as a frieght engine. The information you supplied seems to pose more questions than it answers.

-James Hefner
Hebrews 10:20a

> Hello All I was refered to this group in
> hopes of finding a little information on a
> small steam engine that my diving team has
> found in an old lead mine. The mine is north
> of Joplin, MO and was abandoned in the 40's
> when all the tunnels started to flood out.
> Several pieces of equipment were left to the
> rising waters, one being a small steam
> engine that was used to pull the ore carts.
> well this year we found it in 170' of water
> in what is called the round around room. We
> have video, and I hope soon to have a still
> picture removed to post if anyone wants to
> see it. Thing about it is that we have no
> idea who or when it was built, horsepower,
> ratings, etc. Our team hosts a conference
> every year and this year the train will be
> part of it. If I could get my hands on some
> working photos or any other info I can make
> this a very interesting presention.

> The train is 12' to 15' long. The engine is
> 3 parts, front (boiler?) middle (firebox)
> and operator platform. The front barrel is
> maybe 4' to 5' across and is missing a 1.5'
> round end cap that was unbolted and removed,
> story is that it had the engine numbers and
> was cut into 3 pieces and given to people.
> All construction is of rivets. There are 3
> stacks on top. One appears to be the sand
> hopper with tube leading to wheels. The
> wheels are mostly covered in mud, but the
> drive arm is visible. The operator end is
> 4'x5' maybe and appears to be an open cab
> stand up type situation. There is a cable
> handrail , one lever up through the floor
> and a few other rusted knobs. At the
> operators feet appears to be an opening for
> the firebox and is 2'x 1' or so. Thank you
> for any help on any history or information
> for this mini train.
> Thank You Brian Moore
> OCDA Ozark Cave Diving Alliance
> www.ocda.org


Surviving World Steam Locomotives
james1@pernet.net

If this indeed a minature locomotive, it shouldn't be too hard to raise it via flotation devices. It would make an interesting relic, even if too damaged by rust for restoration.

Cagney book
ryarger@rypn.org

4' diameter boiler seems a bit big for 15" gauge, but perhaps 18 or 22" gauge. What would be even more interesting would be if it were the 4-4-0 from the 24" Mt. Gretna narrow gauge.
I assume this was a pit mine, and I wonder if it the same location where the jerry rigged Corvair-powered trolley runs.

If we are talking about the same mine; it is underground.

-James Hefner
Hebrews 10:20a

> 4' diameter boiler seems a bit big for
> 15" gauge, but perhaps 18 or 22"
> gauge. What would be even more interesting
> would be if it were the 4-4-0 from the
> 24" Mt. Gretna narrow gauge.
> I assume this was a pit mine, and I wonder
> if it the same location where the jerry
> rigged Corvair-powered trolley runs.


Surviving World Steam Project
james@survivingworldsteam.com

Hi again all. The mine is locate in Oronogo, MO southeast corner. The engine sits up right with a pile of cable that was used in an attempt to remove it before water got it. I will have some pictures soon and we are diving on it again thursday and hopefully some team member will take some hard measurements while my buddy and I film a tunnel from which the little engine brought forth the ore and hopefully find some more stuff. It appears there are only 2 axles. Sorry I do not know what piloit wheels and such are yet, but will read some. I have been asked the distance between the rails and would guess it to be 4 feet or so.
> Hi Brian;

> Is the engine you are referring to a former
> St. Joseph Lead Co. in the Bonne Terre Mine,
> Bonne Terre, MO? If so, I have featured an
> underwater picture of it on my
> "Surviving World Steam Locomotive"
> CD-ROM for some time now. If so, I was not
> aware it was that small; I thought it was a
> full size engine.

> It is lying on it's side, along with a
> length or rail. It is a 4-4-0; that is, it
> has four small pilot wheels in the front
> (under the smokebox) and four larger driving
> wheels under the boiler. The running board
> down the side of the boiler is basically an
> open grate.

> It still has it's connecting rods between
> the driving wheels, but appears to missing
> the driving rods from the front cylinder to
> the front pair of driving wheels. Where you
> would expect to find the front cylinders now
> has some sort of assembly with four knobs on
> it. It almost looks like it was converted to
> stationary steam service.

> The trailing pair of pilot wheels are much
> closer to the leading pair of driving wheels
> than you would normally find; but that may
> have been done as part of the
> "conversion". The smokebox used to
> have a number plate with the number
> "07" on it.

> I thought it was a three-foot guage engine;
> but given you description, it sounds more
> like a 12" to 15" guage engine. I
> don't think it is a Crown; it might be a
> homebuilt locomotive, an International
> Miniature Railway Co. locomotive, or an
> Ottoway.

> It would also be interesting if it was
> indeed ussed to haul ore; it would be a rare
> instance where what we consider to be an
> Amusement Park locomotive was actually used
> as a frieght engine. The information you
> supplied seems to pose more questions than
> it answers.

> -James Hefner
> Hebrews 10:20a

Then that is a new find, and I am looking forward to seeing your pictures. It is a totally different engine from the one I have a picture of.

-James Hefner
Hebrews 10:20a

> Hi again all. The mine is locate in Oronogo,
> MO southeast corner. The engine sits up
> right with a pile of cable that was used in
> an attempt to remove it before water got it.
> I will have some pictures soon and we are
> diving on it again thursday and hopefully
> some team member will take some hard
> measurements while my buddy and I film a
> tunnel from which the little engine brought
> forth the ore and hopefully find some more
> stuff. It appears there are only 2 axles.
> Sorry I do not know what piloit wheels and
> such are yet, but will read some. I have
> been asked the distance between the rails
> and would guess it to be 4 feet or so.


james1@pernet.net

Sorry to be so unknowledgable on this subject, but in short could you explain the meaning of gauge and 4-4-0 Brian

> 4' diameter boiler seems a bit big for
> 15" gauge, but perhaps 18 or 22"
> gauge. What would be even more interesting
> would be if it were the 4-4-0 from the
> 24" Mt. Gretna narrow gauge.
> I assume this was a pit mine, and I wonder
> if it the same location where the jerry
> rigged Corvair-powered trolley runs.


bdm@mindspring.com

Brian
If you want to see an example of a slightly different two axle steam mining locomotive, follow the link below

http://www.steamlocomotive.info/vlocomotive.cfm?Di
lamontdc@adelphia.net

> Sorry to be so unknowledgable on this
> subject, but in short could you explain the
> meaning of gauge and 4-4-0 Brian

Gauge is the distance between the inside faces of the head of the rail. Most modern railroads in the US and Europe use "standard gauge" of 4'8.5", so called because it is the gauge most railraods standardized on. Smaller gauges were called "Narrow Guage" and larger one "Wide Gauge". 36" was by far the most common narrow gauge, with 24" and 30" also popular. An industrial railroad could be about any gauge, but was usually narrow. Establishing the gauge of the locomotive helps narrow down its origins and identity, though it does not identify a make.

Designations such as 4-4-0 or 4-6-4 or such, indicate the wheel arrangement. The first number indicates the number of "Pilot Wheels". Pilot wheels are small wheels near the front of the locomotive that help guide it into curves. The second number indicates the number of "Drivers". Drivers are the larger wheels that actually propel the locmotive. They have the rods attached to their sides to link them to each other and to the steam cylinders. The third nubmer is the "Trailing Wheels" which help support the firebox (back part of the boiler where the fire is) and the cab (where the operator is.)

The boiler is divided into three sections. At the rear is the Firebox which is recognized by its squred off bottom. This is where coal, wood or oil is burned to create the heat for the locomotvie. In the middle is the barrel, which is a cylinder full of water. It has flues or tubes passing thorugh that carry the hot gasses from the firebox to the smokebox to heat the water. At the front is the smokebox. It is a hollow section that looks like the barrel but has no insulation on it. The steam cylinders are connected to the smokebox by large pipes or castings that eject their steam up the stack, which comes out of the top of the smokebox.

Most locomotvies have a builders plate which is the most revealing piece of information. It contains the builder name, date and serial number. The builders plate is generally located on the left side of the smokebox. Some also have one on the right side. It may be round, rectangular or diamond shaped.

In the example below, this is an 0-6-0. Note the round builders plate on the side under the stack. The smokebox stats where you see rivets rather than a smooth skin if sheet metal and insulation covering the rivited steel. The firebox is obscured by the cab and the rear driver.

Hope that helps.

The East Broad Top Railroad Homepage

ebtrr@spikesys.com