In thinking while composing a below post.. whatare the most tragic losses ofr the last 25 years..whether or not "reasonable" effort coul've save them. I was thinking about a "top ten" but maybe "top 100" is required.

A few nominees:

LaGrange

Lima Locomotive Works

Hellertown PA roundouse

All the Baldwin, Alco legacy equipment stuff scrapped by conrail....yes, even those nasty C628 Snowbirds with the tracking-banging asymmetric trucks. I'd kill to hear them hammering toward Penobscot out of Laurel Run once time.



superheater@rrmail.com

Santa Fe (Amtrak) Redondo Junction Roundhouse.
Santa Fe San Bernardino shop complex

Can't fault progress though.

Just thinking off the top of my head. Your standards require a little definition; I'm including anything from Jan. 1978 forward.

Brazenly obvious first choice--the National Capital Trolley Museum fire.

B&O/CNJ coach 20 and baggage car 10 in the B&O Museum roof collapse last February, plus the simultaneous damage to the other exhibits and historical fabric of the other damaged exhibits, and the associated loss of resources, monies, time, etc. still being suffered by the B&O Museum........

North Western Terminal head house, Chicago.........

Would the preservation of a more complete UP gas turbine unit than the #18 fall into this time frame?

Lessee, when did we lose the Southrn Crescent and Rio Grande Zephyr? And the Georgia mixeds?

Has an Amtrak SDP40F been saved? Should it? Can we make a case for the P30CH? (At least we saved a Metroliner, an E60, and some F40's....)

GTW 5629, scrapped at Blue Island, Chicago......

The loss of the NS steam program, and its wanton dissolution of the Birmingham shops complex at auction. Of course, we gained much of it (611 and 1218) in that time as well........

The loss of the last generations of railroaders from the steam era. Is there even one employee of a Class One left that worked revenue steam in the old days (exceptions such as the UP and SR/NS steam programs taken into account)? The history of these men is fading before our eyes, just as with the warriors of World War Two.

The loss of common sense in insurance and litigation matters, and with it the "affordable" day outing via mainline steam (UP, NS, etc. saw sharp rises in steam excursion fares before the end of the NS program--by the end, nobody but diehard enthusiasts could justify the expenditure for a family of four/five/etc.)

Lumped under the above banner, I can also cite the rise and fall of the now-moribund Reading & Northern and Ohio Central steam programs..... someday, maybe.....

I could nominate the ever-increasing loss of smaller and more personable major railroads such as the Rock Island, Missouri Pacific, Milwaukee Road, Soo Line, ICG, etc. (Yes, we now have shortlines and regionals--albeit many, if not most, with no sense of history.) Attempting preservation becomes far more difficult when working with a Fortune 500 monolith than a "hometown railroad". As an example, Chessie in 1977-78 and again in 1980-81 sponsored systemwide steam excursions for the 150th anniversary of their railroads. 25 years later, not one iota of recognition of the 175th by CSX. Even Conrail was relatively cooperative over the years, compared with its successors.

To my eye, however, two big standouts are in the loss column:

--the loss of the small-scale, "mom-&-pop" steam operations. As the smaller, older steamers and their maintainers age, it will become increasingly difficult (indeed, has already) for a typical youngster to be infected with the charm of steam. True, an 0-6-0T and a couple cars has almost no relation to the history of railroading, but by the same token neither does an SW1 hauling a couple open-platform cars--and the latter is far less appealing and charming.

--The serious loss--two or three times--of the opportunity to fully and securely preserve and restore the East Broad Top. I now formally call the current state of affairs "The Death March", in spite of the best efforts and intentions of the FEBT. Unless/until there is a MASSIVE change in the railroad's affairs and administration (which, sadly, may not happen), I sadly believe that we are only putting off the inevitable. By the time someone finally decides to turn over the properties to a government or non-profit agency and allows a serious infusion of cash, it will probably be too late--the originals will have to be encased in amber and diesels/replicas substituted.

Give me some time. I'll think up some more.

LNER4472-NOSPAM-@bcpl.net

"Has an Amtrak SDP40F been saved? Should it? Can we make a case for the P30CH? (At least we saved a Metroliner, an E60, and some F40's....)"

Don't forget.....Amtrak SDP40F # 644 has been saved. Currently it is BNSF 6976, but there will be a day when it will once again become Amtrak 644.

It's too bad that one of the GE P30CH's wasn't saved. Heck....maybe up at the Erie shops, maybe there is still the parts to build one?

*Hey, we can dream????*

Dan

NP2626@RRmail.com

Depending on what you mean by worked. Mr B C O'Brien- who began his career firing on the D&H is still with us and still putting a gloved hand on the throttle occasionally @ Steamtown.

I'd like to know 10% of what he's forgotten.

superheater@rrmail.com

> Don't forget.....Amtrak SDP40F # 644 has
> been saved. Currently it is BNSF 6976, but
> there will be a day when it will once again
> become Amtrak 644.

*Frankly, I knew it was........ I was just being cautious. I'm sitting atop the news of a couple of "top-secret" projects where I've been asked not to talk publicly of the plans until the artifact(s) is/are safe and sound elsewhere. I couldn't remember if 6976 was in that category still. So refresh my all-too-sleepy memory--Portland?

LNER4472-NOSPAM-@bcpl.net

> Depending on what you mean by worked. Mr B C
> O'Brien- who began his career firing on the
> D&H is still with us and still putting a
> gloved hand on the throttle occasionally @
> Steamtown.

> I'd like to know 10% of what he's forgotten.

I got some hands on tips last September from a man who ran mainline steam, but only a few are left and there are even fewer who can still get around.
M.Nix

2rivers@upstel.net

Yep, Portland, now owned by the Northwest Rail Museum. As for rebuilding it back to the SDP40F Body....Not for a while, not untill the Maersk Paint scheme starts to fail, but we still do have some other plans for it shortly, everything is sort of on hold for the holidays currently.

Chris Fussel will be starting a new page on 6976 on his www.f40phr231.org site shortly.

Dan


Amtrak F40PHR 231
NP2626@RRmail.com

Three more for the list:

The Kettle Valley Railway (CPR) through southern British Columbia, and the Milwaukee Road (including electrification) from Montana to Puget Sound.

The CPR's inland barge operation in British Columbia from Slocan City to Rosebery, and the branch from Rosebery to Nakusp is also a contender.

> In thinking while composing a below post..
> whatare the most tragic losses ofr the last
> 25 years..whether or not
> "reasonable" effort coul've save
> them. I was thinking about a "top
> ten" but maybe "top 100" is
> required.


Northwest Railway Museum
rra63@hotmail.com

Still some Santa Fe steam men around especially in Needles California. Phil Kaulk and Geore Clous both ran all the big SF steam right up to the end and have both teamed up to get the 3751 in current days over the rails. I hear from George that there are quite a few of the steam guys left. Sadly though as was pointed out they are departing at to fast of a rate.

How about:
V & T Roundhouse in Carson City, the area is still a vacant lot.

Royal Hudson steam train in B. C. Canada
The inability of UP to allow predecessor railroad's Steam locos to run on "their" rails (SP4449 for one). I count this as a loss as UP swallows up everyone else near them, thereby eliminating operating rails for non-UP steam.
S'
David D.


djdewey@cncnet.com

> Lessee, when did we lose the Southrn
> Crescent And the
> Georgia mixeds?

I'd put that at more than 25 years back, Sandy....

Glover Machine Works was almost fully intact until it was demolished a few years ago. It may have been the last complete steam locomotive builder remaining in this country.

We will probably regret losing the vast miles of railroad removed as "redundant" during the merger frenzy as we are bound to have to face the realities of diminishing funding for highway construction and reconstruction for the trucking industry's lobbyists at some point, and we get back to a rational transportation policy.

Our most tragic loss IMHO is our entire industrial economic base to the third world. Building an empire may well turn out to be the only way to remain a superpower. That empire may be one of capital rather than military ventures - if we have enough capital left.

dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

> I'd put that at more than 25 years back,
> Sandy....

Ummmm, no, not quite, unless you're only regarding the Crescent as an all-Pullman train. As it turns out, ALL the last non-Amtrak trains (save for the Alaska RR) just fit in this "25-year" time frame by a few days. Rock IslandÂ’s two trains from Chicago to Peoria, Ill., and Rock Island, Ill. lasted until January 1, 1979. On Feb. 1, 1979, the Southern Crescent made its last SR runs and became part of Amtrak. The Georgia Railroad ran four sets of mixed trains, the last one cancelled by the Seaboard System (and run with ex-Chessie Steam Special cars) on May 6, 1983. And Rio GrandeÂ’s tri-weekly Denver-Salt Lake City domeliner Rio Grande Zephyr made its last run on April 25, 1983, replaced by Amtrak's rerouting of its Zephyr.

LNER4472-NOSPAM-@bcpl.net

While folks are falling all over themselves to get the last steam line in China lets not forget that in the 70's and 80's there was still a lot of steam left outside the United States. For those of us who barely remember regular steam in the U.S. Foreign steam was the way to capture the flavor of mainline steam in every day operations.

I spent a month in 1977 and 1984 in South Africa, which to me was close to what the US was like in the mid-1950's. Add to the list Zimbabwe, Germany, and the rest of Europe and Russia, plus the downfall of China and Cuba steam, and you pretty much complete the list of no more mainline steam.

Say what you want about mainline steam trips, and photo charters in the U.S. today, but they can't match the EXPERIENCE, of everyday steam operations. Unfortunately most of the younger folks will never have that opportunity except in recreations of todays stuff, which of course beats a blank!

Greg Scholl

Videos
sales@gregschollvideo.com

> Our most tragic loss IMHO is our entire
> industrial economic base to the third world.
> Building an empire may well turn out to be
> the only way to remain a superpower. That
> empire may be one of capital rather than
> military ventures - if we have enough
> capital left.

The problem with this argument: The railroads have never been busier and are hauling almost as much freight as possible with fewer track-miles and fewer personnel. Just remember that the entire industrial base you lament--coal mining, steel making, ship building, steam railroads, cotton mills, shirtwaist factories, etc.--was built on the backs of huge numbers of wage slaves condemning themselves to a future of black lung disease, asbestosis, white lung, dismemberment, etc., working for wages that no self-respecting hamburger-flipper at McDonald's or drug dealer on a city street would take today for the hazards. Crushed your leg? Have a gold watch and a nice life. Cotton dust got your lungs? Move over for the new kid.

Frankly, I'm not lamenting the loss of 1978 Chevys and Fords and Caddilacs, nor do I want to go back to the "good ol' days" of boys picking slate out of the coal runnings or twelve-year-olds in the cotton mills.

This is not the place for a huge economics discussion, nor a discussion on NAFTA or whether jobs should be exported to lands where the dangers I described above still are often the norm. But to my eyes, there is precious little difference between someone in Tennessee buying steel from Pennsylvania or from Brazil--your dollars still leave your home town. A rising tide lifts all ships; our only real responsibility is to assure that the other ships don't have holes (as in, the profits going to a dictatorship or communistic economy rather than the workers, as is too often the case). Meanwhile, I doubt the railroads hauling shiploads of containers and highwayfuls of UPS and J.B. Hunt trailers rather than trainloads of LCL boxcars are complaining.


LNER4472-NOSPAM-@bcpl.net