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Hypothetical Preservation Question https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8366	Page 1 of 2

Author:	David M. Wilkins [ Sat Jan 31, 2004 9:22 am ]
Post subject:	Hypothetical Preservation Question
Okay, here is a hypothetical question I would like to get some opinions about. Let's just say you sit on the board of directors for a railroad museum, and the museum like most has a lot more equipment than it can take care of. One of these pieces is a de-engined carbody passenger or freight locomotive of historic significance. It is relevant to the area you are in, but is in bad shape, getting worse. The museum is approached by a group in another town that maintains a static display of equipment by a restored depot. The group does a good job of maintaining the equipment, which includes a couple of accurately painted passenger cars from the same railroad that the locomotive in you museum's possession. The locomotive also ran through that town when in service, and when coupled to the display train by the depot, it would make an nice display, that is in correct context. Say the group is interested in arranging for a long term or permanent loan of the locomotive from your group to theirs with plans to do an extensive cosmetic restoration of it. Here are some questions I would like to get a variety of answers on. 1. Since your museum has no current plans to do anything with the locomotive, should you agree to a loan? 2. If the borrowing group wants a "permanent loan" do you try to ask for a "buyout" clause in the loan agreement in case you get that large cash donation to restore it to operation? 3. What other concerns or stipulations would you have regarding the long term, to permanent loan of a piece of equipment? david.wilkins@bardstown.com

Author:	Dave K [ Sat Jan 31, 2004 1:54 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Hypothetical Preservation Question
1) I see this as a "win-win" for both groups. The largest unknown is already factored out, i.e., the depot museum has an established track record for restorations. 2) I wouldn't be concerned about the issue of "making it run." If an escape clause from the loan would kill the deal, I would forget about the escape clause. An locomotive doesn't necessarily have to run to be a valid exhibit. 3) Of course, the first concern would be the "l word"...liability. The scond primary concern would be all issues dealing with the restoration itself,i.e., documentation (before, during and after the restoration), quality of workmanship and materials, maintaining historical integrity and so on. > Okay, here is a hypothetical question I > would like to get some opinions about. > Let's just say you sit on the board of > directors for a railroad museum, and the > museum like most has a lot more equipment > than it can take care of. One of these > pieces is a de-engined carbody passenger or > freight locomotive of historic significance. > It is relevant to the area you are in, but > is in bad shape, getting worse. > The museum is approached by a group in > another town that maintains a static display > of equipment by a restored depot. The group > does a good job of maintaining the > equipment, which includes a couple of > accurately painted passenger cars from the > same railroad that the locomotive in you > museum's possession. The locomotive also ran > through that town when in service, and when > coupled to the display train by the depot, > it would make an nice display, that is in > correct context. Say the group is interested > in arranging for a long term or permanent > loan of the locomotive from your group to > theirs with plans to do an extensive > cosmetic restoration of it. Here are some > questions I would like to get a variety of > answers on. > 1. Since your museum has no current plans to > do anything with the locomotive, should you > agree to a loan? > 2. If the borrowing group wants a > "permanent loan" do you try to ask > for a "buyout" clause in the loan > agreement in case you get that large cash > donation to restore it to operation? > 3. What other concerns or stipulations would > you have regarding the long term, to > permanent loan of a piece of equipment? newhaven0401-NOSPAM-@verizon.net

Author:	Superheater [ Sat Jan 31, 2004 2:47 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Hypothetical Preservation Question
> > 1. Since your museum has no current plans to > do anything with the locomotive, should you > agree to a loan? > 2. If the borrowing group wants a > "permanent loan" do you try to ask > for a "buyout" clause in the loan > agreement in case you get that large cash > donation to restore it to operation? > 3. What other concerns or stipulations would > you have regarding the long term, to > permanent loan of a piece of equipment? Before I considered such a request as "new business": I would discuss such an arrangement with an attorney. There are certain pitfalls to "permanent loans" as anybody familiar with the DL&W 952 dispute of a few years ago can attest. (i'm not reopening the can of worms or taking sides-thanks). There's an expression "possession is nine tenths of the law". The uniform commercial code-adopted in whole or in part in most states as I understand it, allows for perfection of title to abandoned property by possession alone. Therefore you might have to do things that assert your rights over time, maybe making pewriodic inspection or something that uses time for no organizational gain lest your laxity be seen as abandonment.. Maybe a JD can comment on how that works. Does Kevin McCabe of IRM still visit Rypn? You have to remember that whatever the intent of the current board-future boards may lose interest in the item because "out of sight,out of mind" and even if they don't vacate their rights over the item, for lack of exercise or proper documentation- they might not care to enforce them. Who knows what will transpire in 20 years? Will you have transferred something thats now prohibitively expensive to transport back? Track can be removed, insurance may (ok will) increase,permits may become expensive, rail carriers may not accept for interchange.. yadda yadda yah.. To wrap it up: To make such a loan-I think you must consider the possibility and accept the risk that your "permanent loan" will in fact become an absolute and gratuitous (e.g. free) assignment of ownership over time- with the only reward being the feeling of "free to good home". Of course to meet your fiduciary obligation to organization- it would be best that the dimensions of the risk of losing the item permanently be qualified with counsel and then vigorously discussed by the board. superheater@rrmail.com

Author:	Wesley Paulson [ Sat Jan 31, 2004 6:02 pm ]
Post subject:	What Does Your Museum's Collections Policy Say? NM
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Author:	Jim Lundquist [ Sat Jan 31, 2004 7:17 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Hypothetical Preservation Question
Please do not forget the purpose of any museum - to be caretakers of history for the public. In this case, it sounds like the public benefits from the transfer - donate it to the other group and forever wash your hands of it. Spend time, efforts, energy and money on the others items needing attention. jim@sdrm.org

Author:	John Deck [ Sat Jan 31, 2004 7:26 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Hypothetical Preservation Question
You have stated that the item is not in a good state of repairs but yet has historical value and that the group that owns it is unable to move forward with its preservation and the group that would like it can return it to a good cosmetic state. These are critical factors to take into account when you make your decisions on allowing this unit to go to another collection. My first question is what are your museumÂ’s policies regarding removal of equipment from the collection. Do they have a set of rules on how to de-access an artifact? Second question is how much turmoil will the removal of this object create in your group. Besides a board vote it may be wise to have a membership meeting and vote on it there if the board decides to let it go. As far as loans go the only loans we do are short term to other museums in the area for specific displays or events. We have a loan form and it spells out what is being loaned, who is responsible for it, is it insured by the borrower, when it will be returned, and that it be in the same condition that it left the collection in. We do not do any long-term loans. This is because of the liability and ownership issues that have already been mentioned in this thread. As far as value of the object thatÂ’s up to your board and theirs. We gave a dispatchers board from the Rock Island to a local museum because it fit their display of RI history better than it did our overall mission. We did not ask for any money but do have access to their picture and document collection for future use as we develop displays relating to the Rock. johndeck@cox.net

Author:	Brian Norden [ Sat Jan 31, 2004 11:59 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Hypothetical Preservation Question
I'll tell you what my feelings would be. First, I would not want to do a loan under these circumstances. I would only do a loan (incoming or outgoing) for a short specific exhibition. Second, if asked, I would not do a lease. A lease of long enough duration, would make people think the artifact is theirs, period. But, third, I would greatly consider an outright transfer of ownership. How, this could be done in a couple of ways. One would be to just out right gift the artifact to the second group; this might not be acceptable to people who were involved with saving or keeping the artifact for all of these years. So find an acceptable amount of money (or anything else to trade) for the locomotive shell. While developing and negotiating a price, remember that the artifact will do better at the second group and if you try to hold them up the artifact may remain deteriorating at your place. Brian Norden

Author:	Jim Lundquist [ Sun Feb 01, 2004 2:15 am ]
Post subject:	Bottom line
Do what is best for the artifact - not your Museum. We are here for the artifact, not ourselves. If you do that, you will be respected. Of course, follow the polcies, bylaws ..... BUT - see first sentence. jimlundquist55@yahoo.com

Author:	David M. Wilkins [ Sun Feb 01, 2004 10:02 am ]
Post subject:	Re: What Does Your Museum's Collections Policy Say
The collection policy would state that the locomotive is on a "protected list" meaning that the board could not sell or really do anything major with it, without consent of the membership. david.wilkins@bardstown.com

Author:	Dave K [ Sun Feb 01, 2004 10:49 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Bottom line
I second that notion... Preservation groups needn't be so territorial. A restored piece from your collection on someone elses' property is a better solution to a problem than the same piece rotting away in your back lot. > Do what is best for the artifact - not your > Museum. We are here for the artifact, not > ourselves. > If you do that, you will be respected. > Of course, follow the polcies, bylaws ..... > BUT - see first sentence. newhaven0401-NOSPAM-@verizon.net

Author:	Superheater [ Sun Feb 01, 2004 9:25 pm ]
Post subject:	Don't forget donor intent and fiduciary duty
> I second that notion... > Preservation groups needn't be so > territorial. > A restored piece from your collection on > someone elses' property is a better solution > to a problem than the same piece rotting > away in your back lot. These are fine principles and as a general rule I agree-however if you are organized as a corporation, you (as a director) have to act in the best interest of the organization. There's no fiduciary duty under the law owed to the artifact-there is to the corporation. Additionally, you must consider donor intent-if the item was donated as a "permanently restricted" donation you need to respect that. Even if there are no legal consequences-future donors won't respect you if you don't respect donors. That having been said-you'll have plenty of latitude, you just need to remember (and perhaps document) how you are meeting ALL of your responsibilities. This is why its a good idea to make important decisions with advice of counsel. superheater@rrmail.com

Author:	Patrick McKnight [ Mon Feb 02, 2004 10:52 am ]
Post subject:	Long term loan or lease?
Generally I find the term long term loan an oxymoron, a self-contradicting term. Having been in the museum profession for over twenty years I would never negotiate such a loan. However, I did stumble across something researching the B&M 3713 at Steamtown. The Boston Museum of Science, under the direction of Brad Washburn wanted a locomotive to make the centerpiece of a new wing going up in the 1960s. At some point he made his desires known to F. Nelson Blount and the fledgling Steamtown USA. It was agreed to do the transaction as a 99 year lease as opposed to a loan or outright sale with stipulations protecting the locomotive. Even though the 3713 was transported to Boston and put on display outside the museum, technical problems prevented it being integrated into the new wing. Ultimately other priorities required the lease be cancelled and the locomotive returned to Steamtown USA, which had just been moved to Scranton. Ultimately, this lease protected the 3713 from arbitrary destruction, and ultimately brought it back to Steamtown (and hopefully full operation in the future). While I would not favor a lease, it did work in this particular situation. I would definitely favor it over a long-term loan, though an outright donation or trade would be much cleaner. Just my two cents. Patrick McKnight Historian, Steamtown NHS pat_mcknight@nps.gov

Author:	James Hefner [ Mon Feb 02, 2004 3:09 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Hypothetical Preservation Question PIC
I would also like to point the situation I saw with the locomotive below several years ago. It was loaned for period of years to an organization in Jackson, LA. However, because it was only a loan and not an outright donation, the organization could not see pouring any money into it. After all, once the locomotive was restored, it would return to it's previous owners in a few years, and take their hard work and money with it. So it sat on the grounds as you see here until it's lease ran out; it is now being cosmetically restored for display back at the site of the Goudchaux sugar mill in Reserve, LA. Here in Beaumont, a fire museum invested quite a bit into restoring a steam fire engine; only to have the city that loaned it to them demand it back; where it was put on display. Both cases show that it is also not always in the reciever's best interest to recieve a loaner like these and invest the time and money into it; only to have the item returned to it's former home. -James Hefner Hebrews 10:20a Surviving World Steam Project james@survivingworldsteam.com

Author:	Dave [ Mon Feb 02, 2004 4:56 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Hypothetical Preservation Question
> I would also like to point the situation I > saw with the locomotive below several years > ago. It was loaned for period of years to an > organization in Jackson, LA. > However, because it was only a loan and not > an outright donation, the organization could > not see pouring any money into it. But Jim, didn't this occur to them before they asked for it to be loaned to them? If they don't intend to use it, why request the loan in the first place? dave irondave@bellsouth.net

Author:	James Hefner [ Mon Feb 02, 2004 5:40 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Hypothetical Preservation Question
> But Jim, didn't this occur to them before > they asked for it to be loaned to them? If > they don't intend to use it, why request the > loan in the first place? > dave Dave, That is a good question. I don't know if it was "given" to them with the knowledge they would want it back; or if the museum in Jackson requested it, and only after receiving it was told they could only use if for five years (if my memory serves we correctly.) I guess in the example we discussing here, the item in question would be "permenently" loaned to the other museum. But what would keep them from demanding it back AFTER it had been restored? That is what happened with the steam fire engine in the fire museum in Beaumont. -James Surviving World Steam Project james@survivingworldsteam.com

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