It's official after months of rumors--my favorite locomotive is up for sale.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/3495733.stm

And NO, I an NOT one of the two reported American bidders, thank you very much.

But who would be? Go ahead, folks, speculate. Is there ANY museum or operation that would benefit from the inclusion of this "world-famous" locomotive? Or is the planned acquisition of this locomotive the plan of some eccentric millionnaire or obsessive collector, such as, say, automobile collector Jay Leno? Or a Las Vegas casino?

Now, a Flying Scotsman pub did just open near Union Station in Washington, DC..........

BBC: Flying Scotsman for sale

LNER4472-NOSPAM-@bcpl.net

Judging by your e-mail, I hope you were one of those who saw 4472 when it was in the DC area in 1972 (or thereabouts, 32 years ago already??). Got some photos around Bowie, recall that off-beat exhaust. >

> Judging by your e-mail, I hope you were one
> of those who saw 4472 when it was in the DC
> area in 1972 (or thereabouts, 32 years ago
> already??). Got some photos around Bowie,
> recall that off-beat exhaust. >

Naah, at only 40 years old, I had to make do with jetting over to the UK in 1991 with tickets for one of her few excursions that year--and had to make do with an A4 (60009 Union of South Africa masquerading as 60027 Merlin) when 4472 showed up at Crewe with scored piston rings. I got the grand tour behind the scenes with her, but I still have yet to ride behind her.

But the cab rides on "my" Deltics were pretty good compensation. Now, if I can just cash in my cab ride points on the main line.........



LNER4472-NOSPAM-@bcpl.net

Who would buy it? Some one with a lot of cash $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

-justin

qcmrs18@yahoo.com

If you're asking who WOULD buy her I'd say everyone on this board would! If you are asking who could...Hmmm how about Mr. Gates? Isn't he supposed to a foamer, oops I mean railfan.

Heck if I hit the lotto I will buy and give her to Mr. Mitchell!

-Alan Levy

alanl759@aol.com

> If you're asking who WOULD buy her I'd say
> everyone on this board would! If you are
> asking who could...Hmmm how about Mr. Gates?
> Isn't he supposed to a foamer, oops I mean
> railfan.

> Heck if I hit the lotto I will buy and give
> her to Mr. Mitchell!

> -Alan Levy

Should have said "supposed to BE a"


alanl759@aol.com

Alexander- I believe that you also read Steam Railwy from the UK. In issue #291 they report that it can never leave the country. The exact quote is:

"Fears that LNER 4-6-2 No. 4472 Flying Scotsman could be quietly sold to an overseas bidder have been quashed following the disclosure by the National Railway Museum that such a move would be illegal under British law."

Since its not available for export, maybe we should continue our search for that PRR T1 that was hidden away and forgotten and pursue buying that!

Scott Markloff

> It's official after months of rumors--my
> favorite locomotive is up for sale.

>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/3495733.stm

> And NO, I an NOT one of the two reported
> American bidders, thank you very much.

> But who would be? Go ahead, folks,
> speculate. Is there ANY museum or operation
> that would benefit from the inclusion of
> this "world-famous" locomotive? Or
> is the planned acquisition of this
> locomotive the plan of some eccentric
> millionnaire or obsessive collector, such
> as, say, automobile collector Jay Leno? Or a
> Las Vegas casino?

> Now, a Flying Scotsman pub did just open
> near Union Station in Washington,
> DC..........


markloff@telus.net

> Alexander- I believe that you also read
> Steam Railwy from the UK. In issue #291 they
> report that it can never leave the country.
> The exact quote is:

> "Fears that LNER 4-6-2 No. 4472 Flying
> Scotsman could be quietly sold to an
> overseas bidder have been quashed following
> the disclosure by the National Railway
> Museum that such a move would be illegal
> under British law."

> Since its not available for export, maybe we
> should continue our search for that PRR T1
> that was hidden away and forgotten and
> pursue buying that!

> Scott Markloff

Hey Scott, For real?

That would be best, provided someone responsible in the UK would step up to the plate.
Her schedule in the UK with the current owner begins soon and is rigerous all summer......Wonder if she will run.....

> "Fears that LNER 4-6-2 No. 4472 Flying
> Scotsman could be quietly sold to an
> overseas bidder have been quashed following
> the disclosure by the National Railway
> Museum that such a move would be illegal
> under British law."

Errrr, actually according to several more up-to-date press reports I have been following, that statement is a grotesque overstatement.

As I have read it, the NRM has speculated that such is true--and has taken measures to make it happen--but at the moment it is not certifiably banned from export.

I forget exactly what the title of the law is, but it's the moral equivalent of a broader version of the National Register of Historic Sites in the USA, applicable to such things as artifacts as well as buildings--something like the National Heritage Act. Said law has more teeth than the National Register, but it's still no guarantee, just as a listed building in the USA is not guaranteed safe from demolition.

As I recall, the NRM has applied to place 4472 on this British register, but it's still not there; moreover, there is still motion afoot to make the sale unfeasible by application of horrendously steep excise taxes and export duties--something that would be unnecessary and irrelevant if 4472 had no chance of export.

Basically, we have to look at this as being akin to exactly the same kind of situation as the East Broad Top: it's still in private hands, and anything can happen. The differences are: the British are taking active steps to save the engine from a less-than-sterling fate (say, sale to a Japanese amusement park); the responsible parties are the equivalent of bankruptcy trustees who have to get the most money they can, not a family rebuffing state or federal monetary offers opver years; and something has to happen to 4472 soon--it won't languish in limbo for 40 years.


LNER4472-NOSPAM-@bcpl.net

> Basically, we have to look at this as being
> akin to exactly the same kind of situation
> as the East Broad Top: it's still in private
> hands, and anything can happen.

I really have to say I don't see much comparison. A locmotive vs. an entire railway, not to mention completely different tax and bankruptcy systems. Maybe the Blount collection after his F. Nelson's death would be a more apt analogy. but even then I suspect the two legal and regulatory climates are so different as to make the comparison not particularly illuminating.

eledbetter@rypn.org

Thanks for the update. Where are you tracking the latest developments? I did a little unsuccessful searching last night on the internet. I personally believe it should stay in the UK. Enthusiasts there are quite zealous about all things British, whether built for use there or anywhere else in the world. If it was made in the UK it needs to be returned to the UK. The Shopshire (sp?) collection is a good example. The Flying Scotsman being sold and brought to the US would be like the PRR 1361 or UP 844 being sold and sent to the UK. Anyway, I'm also interested in tracking the story beyond just Steam Railway and Heritage Railway, the 2 British magazines I read.
Scott Markloff

markloff@telus.net

I know it was here in the late sixties, early seventies but are there any regs in place now that would require modification of the loco to run here?

I'm thinking things like a second water glass, ditch lights, headlight, etc. Are the couplers compliant with ours or unique?

Thanks in advance.

When 4472 came to the states she was given a headlight, a new whistle in a new position (why?) and a knuckle coupler, from what I know. English couplers are not compatible, but there maybe some commuter equipment that uses knuckle couplers, not sure.

Engines produced before a certain year are exempt from ditch lights, but some do have them. CPR 2816, C&O 614, the ex RDG 2100 come to mind. Not sure what the Canadian ditch-light rules are though.

Joshua

joshua@joshuakblay.com

The notion of an individual buying the #4472 is only strange in America, where it is not common to find a steam locomotive owned by a person.

In England, a large number of operating engines are private property.

Perhpas it would be a good sign to see Americans follow suit, even if it is with the #4472.

Rob

locomotives In canada have to have Ditch lights, some however dont like the locomotives at South Simcoe. Both 2816 and 6060 have them but the ones on the 2816 are removable.

-justin

> When 4472 came to the states she was given a
> headlight, a new whistle in a new position
> (why?) and a knuckle coupler, from what I
> know. English couplers are not compatible,
> but there maybe some commuter equipment that
> uses knuckle couplers, not sure.

> Engines produced before a certain year are
> exempt from ditch lights, but some do have
> them. CPR 2816, C&O 614, the ex RDG 2100
> come to mind. Not sure what the Canadian
> ditch-light rules are though.

> Joshua


qcmrs18@yahoo.com