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| Electrical Question https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8711 |
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| Author: | Mark Bassett [ Tue Mar 02, 2004 7:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Electrical Question |
We have a couple of old passenger cars here at the Nevada Northern that we are planning to refurbish. As I start drawing up the specifications, I’m stumped at electricity. I know Amtrak uses 440v power. But these cars will never interchange with Amtrak. My gut feeling is that by using standard household current, the museum would be saving a great deal of money because 110v fixtures are more common and therefore less expense than 440v fixtures. We are also looking to base the cars here in Ely tied to “shore” power when not out on the tracks. I would be interested in hearing thoughts pro and con. Thanks Nevada Northern Railway Museum nnry1@mwpower.net |
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| Author: | dave [ Tue Mar 02, 2004 7:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Electrical Question |
Mark - unless you plan to run lots of air conditioners and electric heat 3 phase is probably way overkill for your uninterchangeable cars. 110 will do a great job of running lighting. Single phase 3 wire 220 will do some heavier stuff, like an electric stove if you want to cook on board. Power suplies and other parts are readily available off the shelf for both these specifications. Please be careful running AC wiring - ground everything as well as using a neutral return. No point making a passenger or brakeman part of the ground circuit. Also, lightweight household stuff isn't up to long term exposure to the rigors of railroad use, pay a little more for the industrial grade stuff. dave irondave@bellsouth.net |
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| Author: | Brian Norden [ Tue Mar 02, 2004 10:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Electrical Question |
> We have a couple of old passenger cars here > at the Nevada Northern that we are planning > to refurbish. As I start drawing up the > specifications, I’m stumped at electricity. > I know Amtrak uses 440v power. But these > cars will never interchange with Amtrak. My > gut feeling is that by using standard > household current, the museum would be > saving a great deal of money because 110v > fixtures are more common and therefore less > expense than 440v fixtures. > We are also looking to base the cars here in > Ely tied to “shore” power when not out on > the tracks. > I would be interested in hearing thoughts > pro and con. Thanks Which cars are you talking about? The Lackawanna passenger cars or the historic Nevada Northern cars? If you talking about the Nevada Northern cars, I would keep them as 32v d.c. You can trainline them from a power source. Lightbulbs may be getting hard to find, but the lighting will be historic. If you're a museum or a historical organization keep your mission in mind. I would not hesitate to change any non-historic car to the Nevada Northern to something usable. Yes, Amtrak 3 phase 440 is an overkill. I would use industrial/rough service/transit sytle fixtures and blubs. You can hang a package generator under one of these cars or put one in a baggage compartment. "Shore Power" -- this can be anything from a simple weatherproof plub-in if you're using 110v ac. If you keep 32dc on cars you can have a solid state converter on the ground or in a car to plug into. Likewise, such a converter can be the connection between the ac equipted cars and the dc equipted cars. Railroad cars flex, while buildings do not, so I would use stranded wire, not solid wires as you would in a house, etc. Western Ry Museum (Bay Area) when it operated diesel powered passenger trains equipted one of its baggage cars with a package generator underneath the floor to produce 32 volt dc. Orange Empire has a 220v generator in a baggage-combine that is wired to one of the traditional stand-by power lines on one the moderized heavyweights. The gene-motor under the car then produces the 32volts dc just like it would while the car would be plugged in at a yard. The 32-volts is then trainlined to the various cars. Brian Norden |
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| Author: | Catalpa [ Wed Mar 03, 2004 10:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Electrical Question |
The railraods have had a long time to experiment and learn through experience what works. You're doing the right thing asking around for ideas, etc. For instance, the recommendation about using stranded versus solid wire is a very good one. Various railroads used 32, 64 or 110 VDC for their base passenger car power. You correctly note that Amtrak uses 480 VAC 3 Phase, but there are still a few battery powered circuits lucking in the latest and greatest Amtrak designs. Probably the best thing to do is check with other reputable museums, tourist operations, etc. Check with TRAIN, ARM or RPCA members. Sadly, there has been a lot economy (i.e., cutting corners)out there and sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn't. Train cars aren't houses. What works fine standing still doesn't necessarily work rocking and rolling down the track. If memory serves me correctly, the National Electric Code used to say in the first paragraph or so that it "doesn't apply to railroad cars." Now I'll duck and wait for the return fire..,. prr8404@aol.com |
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| Author: | David Farlow [ Wed Mar 03, 2004 2:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Electrical Question |
> Which cars are you talking about? The > Lackawanna passenger cars or the historic > Nevada Northern cars? > If you talking about the Nevada Northern > cars, I would keep them as 32v d.c. You can > trainline them from a power source. > Lightbulbs may be getting hard to find, but > the lighting will be historic. If you're a > museum or a historical organization keep > your mission in mind. > I would not hesitate to change any > non-historic car to the Nevada Northern to > something usable. Yes, Amtrak 3 phase 440 is > an overkill. I would use industrial/rough > service/transit sytle fixtures and blubs. > You can hang a package generator under one > of these cars or put one in a baggage > compartment. > "Shore Power" -- this can be > anything from a simple weatherproof plub-in > if you're using 110v ac. If you keep 32dc on > cars you can have a solid state converter on > the ground or in a car to plug into. > Likewise, such a converter can be the > connection between the ac equipted cars and > the dc equipted cars. > Railroad cars flex, while buildings do not, > so I would use stranded wire, not solid > wires as you would in a house, etc. > Western Ry Museum (Bay Area) when it > operated diesel powered passenger trains > equipted one of its baggage cars with a > package generator underneath the floor to > produce 32 volt dc. > Orange Empire has a 220v generator in a > baggage-combine that is wired to one of the > traditional stand-by power lines on one the > moderized heavyweights. The gene-motor under > the car then produces the 32volts dc just > like it would while the car would be plugged > in at a yard. The 32-volts is then > trainlined to the various cars. > Brian Norden I'd second considering a use of the 32vdc system. I suspect you are only talking about lighting in the cars anyway. I have found lots of 28vdc generators for sale through the Federal Surplus programs designed as military starting generators. They have an adjustment knob that will take them as high as 36VDC. David Farlow Whitewater Valley RR hudson.industries@att.net |
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| Author: | Brad Taylor [ Wed Mar 03, 2004 3:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Electrical Question |
> The railraods have had a long time to > experiment and learn through experience what > works. You're doing the right thing asking > around for ideas, etc. For instance, the > recommendation about using stranded versus > solid wire is a very good one. Various > railroads used 32, 64 or 110 VDC for their > base passenger car power. You correctly note > that Amtrak uses 480 VAC 3 Phase, but there > are still a few battery powered circuits > lucking in the latest and greatest Amtrak > designs. Probably the best thing to do is > check with other reputable museums, tourist > operations, etc. Check with TRAIN, ARM or > RPCA members. Sadly, there has been a lot > economy (i.e., cutting corners)out there and > sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn't. > Train cars aren't houses. What works fine > standing still doesn't necessarily work > rocking and rolling down the track. If > memory serves me correctly, the National > Electric Code used to say in the first > paragraph or so that it "doesn't apply > to railroad cars." > Now I'll duck and wait for the return > fire..,. For what it's worth, the comments regarding the use of stranded wire cannot be over emphasized. Do not use single strand "solid" wire in anything that moves and vibrates. Fatigue failure will eventually occur. I suggest using marine grade or RV vehicle approved copper wire (multi-strand). I don't have the resource reference handy but following a marine type wiring code in a railcar seems somehow more appropriate than wiring like a house. Good luck. Brad_Taylor@ttx.com |
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| Author: | J.B.Bane [ Wed Mar 03, 2004 10:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Electrical Question |
> The railraods have had a long time to > experiment and learn through experience what > works. You're doing the right thing asking > around for ideas, etc. For instance, the > recommendation about using stranded versus > solid wire is a very good one. Various > railroads used 32, 64 or 110 VDC for their > base passenger car power. You correctly note > that Amtrak uses 480 VAC 3 Phase, but there > are still a few battery powered circuits > lucking in the latest and greatest Amtrak > designs. Probably the best thing to do is > check with other reputable museums, tourist > operations, etc. Check with TRAIN, ARM or > RPCA members. Sadly, there has been a lot > economy (i.e., cutting corners)out there and > sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn't. > Train cars aren't houses. What works fine > standing still doesn't necessarily work > rocking and rolling down the track. If > memory serves me correctly, the National > Electric Code used to say in the first > paragraph or so that it "doesn't apply > to railroad cars." > Now I'll duck and wait for the return > fire..,. I am an electrical contractor and was looking at the wiring in some pass. cars belonging to a short line that hauls some tourists along with freight. While I would guess that the wiring that I was looking at was done by professional rr personel in a car shop somewhere, it was far short of the Nat. Elec. Code requirements in terms of protecting conductors from physical damage. I looked at the front of the code and as you suggest, it says it does not apply to rr equipment. Are there any standards that do apply to rr equipment? Does the FRA have anything to say on this subject? jamesbane@hotmail.com |
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| Author: | Craig H. Lacey [ Thu Mar 04, 2004 1:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: An Economical Solution/Electrical Question |
> We have a couple of old passenger cars here > at the Nevada Northern that we are planning > to refurbish. As I start drawing up the > specifications, I’m stumped at electricity. > I know Amtrak uses 440v power. But these > cars will never interchange with Amtrak. My > gut feeling is that by using standard > household current, the museum would be > saving a great deal of money because 110v > fixtures are more common and therefore less > expense than 440v fixtures. > We are also looking to base the cars here in > Ely tied to “shore” power when not out on > the tracks. > I would be interested in hearing thoughts > pro and con. Thanks When it comes to long-term practicality in a low-budget operating environment, higher voltage, simplicity and availability of components are the keys to success. At the Heber Valley Railroad, a 220 Volt AC standard was adopted in 1992. A 4-conductor carrier (2 110-volt "hot" legs, neutral and ground) is used. The cars in the train are configured to use either the left- or right-side "hot" leg, to provide 110 AC power in each car, and to balance out the power. In this manner, standard Onan or Stadco power plants (15 kW propane or 20 kW diesel) are utilized, and standardized, modern electrical components and fixtures are used. Another benefit is that the existing 32-volt DC wiring and fixtures can be utilized if they are in decent shape. The only way the "purists" will know the difference is if they are looking at the light bulbs themselves. Christmas lights, sound amplifiers and other equipment are quite easy to use, when 110 power is available. Traditional generators, 32-volt DC and batteries work only at higher speeds, and cannot be used for heat, air-conditioning or other electrical needs. The problem with utilizing 110-volt AC power is the line loss over the length of the train. Larger, more expensive plugs and cord are needed, and the performance degrades, as distance from the power source increases. The old "Heber Creeper" used 110 power, and it did not work that well. Electrical power on a train must be carefully managed, especially when hot-plates, corn poppers, hot-dog rollers and other high-wattage appliances are used. We have optimized power consumption by utilizing 220-volt appliances where possible. It also helps to mount the power source (generator) close to the components with the largest appetites. Operating crews must also be extremely careful during switching operations. Inadvertent pull-aparts tend to damage the Hubbell or Woodhead connectors, usually result in "frying" some of the train's electric components which are turned on at the time. As far as shore power is concerned, we utilize standard residential or commercial components (breakers, etc), similar to connecting an electric range or dryer. It's not a perfect system (and doesn't work that well with air-conditioning and high-load motorized equipment), but it suits our needs quite well. As far as I know, FRA doesn't weigh in on this issue, as long as the wiring is done to an established code, and as long as the electrical cords, plugs, etc. do not interfere with handholds or other railroad safety appliances. Craig H. Lacey Executive Director Heber Valley Historic Railroad Authority Heber City, Utah Heber Valley Railroad clacey@hebervalleyrr.org |
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| Author: | Ben True [ Thu Mar 04, 2004 7:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | While we're at it..... |
and talking about coach wiring, and connections.... What about PA systems? I don't know much about them my self but I do know some work VERY good (like Strasburg's) and others aren't worth a hoot (I'll spare the name). Any suggestions? Any body make any thing specificly for something operations like this where you have a variable amount of speakers and run of wire and all on one channel? Any companies that are good with this sort of thing? btrue@vt.edu |
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| Author: | Fred Krock [ Thu Mar 04, 2004 8:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: While we're at it..... |
> What about PA systems? I don't know much > about them my self but I do know some work > VERY good (like Strasburg's) and others > aren't worth a hoot (I'll spare the name). > Any suggestions? What you want is what is called a "70 Volt System" In this day of solid state amplifiers you will need a transformer on the amplifier output to step the signal up to a nominal 70 volts. By increasing the voltage and decreasing the current, you reduce problems caused by dirty contacts on plugs and connectors in the wiring. One tip: Do not use household electrical plugs and sockets for speaker wiring. If it can be plugged into an electrical outlet by mistake, it will be. You will need a transformer at each loudpeaker to reduce the voltage and match the loudspeaker impedance. Usually these transformers have several taps so you can adjust the volume level to that needed at that location. For example, a loudspeaker on an open car usually needs to be louder than a loudspeaker inside a parlor car. Most manufacturers of professional public address equipment offer a 70 volt option for their equipment. Even Radio Shack sells line transformers for 70 volt systems. The 970-1244 100 watt transformer for the amplifier sells for $39.99. The 32-1031 transformer for the loudspeakers lists for $6.99. The other requirements for the train PA system are the same as for any other good quality PA system. You need to confirm that the amplifier has enough power for the system. You must be sure that the individual compoments of the system are compatible with each other. Loudspeakers must be capable putting out required sound levels without serious distortion. You need to use a good quality microphone. Use a noise-cancelling microphone if the announcer is in a noisy location. The final and perhaps most important thing is that all announcers are trained in the proper microphone technique. The best equipment in the world can become useless if the announcer does not use the correct microphone technique. None of this is rocket science. You may be able to get a local PA system vendor to help you. fkrock@pacbell.net |
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| Author: | El-VB [ Thu Mar 04, 2004 9:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | worrying! |
Worrying! . Operating crews > must also be extremely careful during > switching operations. Inadvertent > pull-aparts tend to damage the Hubbell or > Woodhead connectors, usually result in > "frying" some of the train's > electric components which are turned on at > the time. How could systems that do such things comply with any sort of installation code!! Will a pull-apart leave expose live conductors? and FWIW, will a generator failure or pull-apart leave a train in blackness? Are the AMTRAK requirements published on-line anywhere? |
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| Author: | Ray Montgomery [ Thu Mar 04, 2004 11:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: While we're at it..... |
> What you want is what is called a "70 > Volt System" Good start on the description. I have designed these systems for several years for fixed installations. If you follow the basic guidelines for these systems they will work well, sound good and be low to no maintenance. Also I whole heartedly agree about the announcer training. I have often suggested using recorded messages to eliminate this variable. If I can help contact me directly. Thanks karenandray@bellsouth.net |
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| Author: | Dave K [ Thu Mar 04, 2004 11:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: worrying! |
Whoa !!! Slow down a bit. First, any comparison of the AMTRAK HEP set-up and that what would be necessary on a "tourist" type railroad may be (somewhat) specious. Amtrak uses a 480 VAC, 3 phase system with a built-in safety feature called the "train line complete" circuit. If any of the HEP cables are disturbed either accidentally or intentionally when under power, the HEP alternator or invertor is automatically powered down. That being said-if cars are added and/or removed from a train, the HEP unit is powered down from the locomotive controls BEFORE the cables are connected/disconnected. This is SOP-period. The HEP cables and connectors as used by Amtrak are not inexpensive !!! I think they would probably be overkill on a tourist railroad application based on cost and the fact that the TLC circuit would be missing. I think the combination of a) placing a hand-thrown disconnect switch between the power supply and the receptacles on each end of the car and b) development of suitable connect and disconnect procedures would go a long way to aleviating any safety concerns. I don't think that AMTK has their car wiring and cabling specs. available to the public. Again, I suspect that their requirements would be overkill. The FRA is probably not the correct venue to research this issue either. The AAR might have a Code of Standards and Recommended Practices that covers this issue. Even APTA might be a source. My last comment is this: Besides the obvious need for mechanical protection of wiring, yet another concern would be the connection of wires in a junction box or piece of powered equipment. Wire nuts are not acceptable-as they can vibrate loose. The correct application would be a permanent compression connector of some type-suitably insulated. > Worrying! > . Operating crews > How could systems that do such things comply > with any sort of installation code!! Will a > pull-apart leave expose live conductors? > and FWIW, will a generator failure or > pull-apart leave a train in blackness? > Are the AMTRAK requirements published > on-line anywhere? newhaven0401-NOSPAM-@verizon.net |
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| Author: | sc 'doc' lewis [ Fri Mar 05, 2004 12:08 am ] |
| Post subject: | did someone call for a live conductor? |
> Worrying! > . Operating crews > How could systems that do such things comply > with any sort of installation code!! Will a > pull-apart leave expose live conductors? The current (pardon the pun) configuration is with the female portion of the connectors on the power side therefore a pull apart on the generator powered train does not expose live conductors. The situation is reversed (live conductors exposing themselves--aren't you glad we're discussing electricity and not personnell) when the train is on shore power. This is why there are training programs, procedures to follow (i.e.train off shore power and generator started before the engine is put on the train and visa versa), certifications, etc. > and FWIW, will a generator failure or > pull-apart leave a train in blackness? generator failure? yes. pull-apart? only on the far-side (where are you when i need you eric larson?) of the break. In the five years, I've been conducting, because of the strength of the connectors there have been few (if any) pull aparts on the power side of things while "under way" (the train sound system is another matter). We actually have a greater problem on the "Dance Train Charters" with the college kids locating the light panel for the coaches and "setting the mood" until the conductor comes through. > Are the AMTRAK requirements published > on-line anywhere? This, I don't know. (I was always taught to never be ashamed to tell someone that you don't know something--so there's something I can add to the list until someone posts the answer below). sc 'doc' lewis Heber Valley Railroad utweyesguy@aol.com |
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| Author: | Pete [ Fri Mar 05, 2004 12:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Electrical Question |
Are you trying to make an authentic restoration or just fixing up some cars to "play" with? |
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