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call for help, Georgetown loop
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Author:  call for help [ Fri Mar 12, 2004 1:26 am ]
Post subject:  call for help, Georgetown loop
The State of Colorado may be forcing the owners of the Georgetown loop railroad to pull the plug at the end of october 2004. The are claiming they cannot aid in any of the upkeep of the line due to a state budget issue.
Please, anyone that would like to see this railroad continue to operate write, e-mail, or call your congress person to try and get the state to be persueded in a more positive direction.
All of the motive power, shop equipment, and most of the other rollingstock is owned by the operators of the railroad. If they go, the railroad is and most likely will forever be dead.
Author:  Taylor Rush [ Fri Mar 12, 2004 2:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: call for help, Georgetown loop
If what you're saying is true, then the Georgetown Loop will need all the help it can get. It just doesn't sound all that likely though. The railroad is extremely popular, and has been in service for decades. Plus, the Colorado Historical Society, the Asheby's (sp), and many others have invested huge amounts of time, effort, and money into the line, so why pull the plug now? I'm not saying there isn't a chance of it happening, I would just like to know the full story. Can you tell us where you got your information?

Thanks, Taylor

Sumpter Valley Railway
thrush@smt-net.com
Author:  Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Fri Mar 12, 2004 3:23 am ]
Post subject:  The cynic in me says............
> The State of Colorado may be forcing the
> owners of the Georgetown loop railroad to
> pull the plug at the end of october 2004.
> The are claiming they cannot aid in any of
> the upkeep of the line due to a state budget
> issue.

*So are you saying or claiming that the maintenance of the Georgetown ROW has always been a state budget issue?

> Please, anyone that would like to see this
> railroad continue to operate write, e-mail,
> or call your congress person to try and get
> the state to be persueded in a more positive
> direction.

*Seeing as I'm not in Colorado, I don't know how much good petitioning my senators for the People's Democratic Republic of Mary's Land will do.....

> All of the motive power, shop equipment, and
> most of the other rollingstock is owned by
> the operators of the railroad. If they go,
> the railroad is and most likely will forever
> be dead.

*So the maintenance-intensive right-of-way is gone, but the operators are free to move elsewhere? Sounds good to me, if the ROW is so bad...........

So motivate me. What's the real story here?


LNER4472-NOSPAM-@bcpl.net
Author:  Tom Gears [ Fri Mar 12, 2004 8:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: call for help, Georgetown loop
They are an operation that runs everyday, and when I rode on a weekday they seemed to have a good turnout. How much upkeep could it take to keep 3 miles of track running? Any funding to this ends has to be very small.

Tom
Author:  dave [ Fri Mar 12, 2004 8:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: call for help, Georgetown loop
> They are an operation that runs everyday,
> and when I rode on a weekday they seemed to
> have a good turnout. How much upkeep could
> it take to keep 3 miles of track running?
> Any funding to this ends has to be very
> small.

There are not all that many horizontal miles but the vertical mileage is pretty impressive.

The track isn't worn out by runing trains, but from the effects of the weather between operating seasons. The initial plow out every spring is an interesting operation, it isn't unusual to fins considerable chunks of mountain have moved onto the roadbed and considerable portions of roadbed have moved into Clear Creek.

The work done by the Seabees to get the line open includes some wood retaining walls near the cut which were reaching the end of their useful life when I worked there years ago. The rock wall was inching towards the track. One section coming off the high bridge going towards Powderhouse is always wet with mine drainage and requires frequent attention.

The operators spend considerable money to perform maintenence to keep the railroad working. The State of Colorado is responsible for large capital expenses to the fixed plant (if I correctly recall). My guess is there may be some disagreement about what is a capital investment as opposed to maintenence, but I have no specific insight into the current situation.

I can tell you that the fixed plant provides some signifiant limitations which limit available seats to sell to an 8 car trainload. Expanding the seating base can't be accomplished by adding cars or a second train. Extending the operating season is the only possible means of increasing income potential, and that doesn't fly from a marketing POV. Given these limitations, there is only so much investment the private operator can make and remain solvent. It takes the partnership to make it feasable.

dave



irondave@bellsouth.net
Author:  John Craft [ Fri Mar 12, 2004 1:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Denver Post article
See the link.

Denver Post
Author:  Stephen Peck [ Fri Mar 12, 2004 2:31 pm ]
Post subject:  From the Loop
First, let me state that I work for the Loop, so anything I say is my point of view only. My point of view comes from spending every Saturday in the Silver Plume shop or in one of the locomotives that are owned by the Georgetown Loop (GLR) operators. With that, there are some items that I will give my perspective on.

"The State of Colorado may be forcing the owners of the Georgetown loop railroad to pull the plug at the end of october 2004". It is the Colorado Historical Society (CHS) that is making a mess of this situation, which is different than the State of Colorado. CHS helped to restore GLR by lobbying to Colorado Dept. of Transportation to build I-70 on the side of Republican Mountain rather than plowing through the valley where the Loop used to be and is today. Once again, construction planning is going on, with plans to widen I-70 through this historical district to 8 lanes. Could this be an a catalyst for this issue? If so, the news should contain all the issues.

"They (CHS) are claiming they cannot aid in any of the upkeep of the line due to a state budget issue." A state budget issue? WHAT?! Exactly which budget and what are the dollar amounts? I don't understand how there is a budget issue when GLR generates money for CHS through profits from ticket sales for the train, profits from the gift shops, and profits from the mine tour that is offered with the train ride. Could somebody help with this journalistic illusion that is also noted in today's Denver Post? It's just not truthful and somebody needs to point this out.

"All of the motive power, shop equipment, and most of the other rollingstock is owned by the operators of the railroad." True. Better stated, GLR operators own the only equipment on the property that is operable. CHS also owns narrow gauge equipment, but they fail to maintain what they have. CHS contracted to have two C&S passenger cars restored, but the restoration was not 100% and the railcars are not roadworthy. In addition, CHS constructed a building to house their narrow gauge equipment that is not open to the public due to CHS staffing / budget issues. CHS managed to acquire C&S locomotive # 9 and CHS has not put any effort into this historically valuable artifact. That in itself illustrates misdirected priorities of a "society" that is supposed to promote history.

"It just doesn't sound all that likely though." ... and nobody thought that CHS would let business relations get to such a bad point.

"so why pull the plug now?" Because a 20 year contract was put into place in 1984 and things change in 20 years. Namely, the people at CHS keep changing while the GLR operators have remained persistent and successful.

"if the ROW is so bad" Who said ROW is bad? It is not. GLR ROW is well maintained by GLR operators as their expense. Once again CHS does not have expenses in this operation. Expenses are by GLR operators, as is profit generation.

"How much upkeep could it take to keep 3 miles of track running?" Answer = A hell of a lot. Please accept an invitation to line track and replace ties if you have never had the pleasure. GLR maintains track by Armstrong machinery. That means true grit track crew with hand tools. Add in the consideration of four bridges, average 4% grade, and several curves. The best part is that track crew starts at the crack of dawn and has to have the line open before the first train. Let me know when you can start and I'd be happy to help get you on track crew.

"Any funding to this ends has to be very small." I guess that must be true since we don't have thousands invested into automatic machinery. Add up cost to build and maintain a motor-car, buy tools, and pay wages and let us know if this qualifies for "very small". Sorry to sound snippy, but unless you find yourself trying to drive in a spike with a maul, you can't appreciate the cost and effort involved.

"8 car trainload" Typical GLR trains are now 9 cars.

"Expanding the seating base can't be accomplished by adding cars or a second train" We do occassionally run second trains, but for excursions. A second train is not possible due to parking limitations that are dictated by land available in between two mountains.

"Extending the operating season is the only possible means of increasing income potential" Mountain weather does not permit a longer season.

"It takes the partnership to make it feasable" True and obvious. Why has CHS let things get to this point?

Is it CHS that needs to change or the operators that have made GLR? If the operators go away, so does the current operating equipment I vote CHS needs different people that are more wise.

See also: http://www.ngdiscussion.net/cgi-bin/NGD ... read=40467

domino_p@yahoo.com
Author:  jimwrinn [ Fri Mar 12, 2004 4:00 pm ]
Post subject:  GL: Class operation
My first visit to GL was in the spring of 1987. Power was 2-8-0 40. It was still snowing in the Rockies at Memorial Day weekend... the ride is incredible. Next trip was in fall 1992, it was still snowing in the Rockies on beautiful yellow Aspens... Power was Shay 14 and Hugo Lackman was the engineer, who provided a cab ride on the uphill trip. Most recent trip was June 1997, and it was a bright sunny day.. a lot of us were in town for the UP trip across Tennessee Pass. Power was 40 again. Now snow, but we did have to stop on the side of the mountain for the crew to convince a balky lifting injector that it was time to work.

I'm getting dangerously close (2 more years) to having been riding tourist railroads now for 40 years, and the GL is one of the best in terms of the combination of scenery and mountain railroading.

GL is an incredible site... beautiful, rugged, stark, dramatic, just amazing. GLR is an incredible operation.. tiny trains against a giant mountain. I had the good fortune to get to know Lindsey Ashby and his wife, Rosa, when NCTM hosted ARM/TRAIN 2001. They are the finest folks you'll ever want to know. I hope they are able to work something out because they are good people who know what they're doing.

If you've never been to GL go this year. If yo've not been back in a while... get out there this year.

Wrinnbo@aol.com
Author:  Erik Ledbetter [ Fri Mar 12, 2004 5:51 pm ]
Post subject:  What is to be done?
What can we do, Stephen? Who do we write to and what are the talking points you suggest?

eledbetter@rypn.org
Author:  dave [ Fri Mar 12, 2004 8:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What is to be done?
Bear in mind that CHS is a subset of the state government - consider how the state has dealt with CATS recently. Also consider how different the management at GLR has been compared to those who had operating contracts at CATS before the Friends took over.

GLR isn't using up the state's asset and leaving town. There is no huge backlog of deferred maintenence at GLR. Continuing a relationship with proven responsible leadship would seem to me to be a selling point / easily understood point of differentiation for any state bureaucrat or elected official who may have concerns based on the CATS experience.

dave

irondave@bellsouth.net
Author:  Jeff Badger [ Fri Mar 12, 2004 9:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: GL: Class operation *PIC*
> My first visit to GL was in the spring of
> 1987. Power was 2-8-0 40. It was still
> snowing in the Rockies at Memorial Day
> weekend... the ride is incredible. Next trip
> was in fall 1992, it was still snowing in
> the Rockies on beautiful yellow Aspens...
> Power was Shay 14 and Hugo Lackman was the
> engineer, who provided a cab ride on the
> uphill trip. Most recent trip was June 1997,
> and it was a bright sunny day.. a lot of us
> were in town for the UP trip across
> Tennessee Pass. Power was 40 again. Now
> snow, but we did have to stop on the side of
> the mountain for the crew to convince a
> balky lifting injector that it was time to
> work.

> I'm getting dangerously close (2 more years)
> to having been riding tourist railroads now
> for 40 years, and the GL is one of the best
> in terms of the combination of scenery and
> mountain railroading.

> GL is an incredible site... beautiful,
> rugged, stark, dramatic, just amazing. GLR
> is an incredible operation.. tiny trains
> against a giant mountain. I had the good
> fortune to get to know Lindsey Ashby and his
> wife, Rosa, when NCTM hosted ARM/TRAIN 2001.
> They are the finest folks you'll ever want
> to know. I hope they are able to work
> something out because they are good people
> who know what they're doing.

> If you've never been to GL go this year. If
> yo've not been back in a while... get out
> there this year.

Jim, I will have to second your opinion on the GL along with the Ashbys. I rode first rode it in 1976, then in 1978, 80, 82(NHRS Conv), 88 & lastly in 1994. I am longing to go back there now since good friend Phil Reader is with GL again.

Seems to me the Hysterical Societies in that particular state have issues with the great railroads that once plied the lines. When the Ashbys had the operation in Central City, and I rode behing the Shay, there was this neat little Consol at the end of track. Rebuilt in the 80's and it ran for a short period of time. Gilpin County messed that up along with who knows else, otherwise GL would have had a wonderful piece of history that was native to the line. Now the 71 sits on a pedestal for drunken gamblers to see.

Steve is right on! What can we do other than get out there and support the operation? ...

As a side bit, I too have been riding tourist trains for nearly 40 years now... the first was in 1966 on Dale Gentry's 36" 0-6-2T 1 mile route around the Orange Show Fairgronds in San Bernardino, CA. I still have the ticket!

nuff said 4 now
Jeff


Image
Author:  call for help [ Fri Mar 12, 2004 10:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: From the Loop
Stephen,

Maybe you could shed some light on this as well. It is my understanding that the town of Silver Plum is less than happy to have the railroad operating and bringing in "outsiders". I have been told that the town is largely populated by folks that moved there to get away from "city life", and nothing would please them more than for they to be the only ones taking the exit off of 70.
I had been told that at some point the idea was floated of extending the line all the way into town, and the responses were not suitable to be repeated on this board.
Is this true, or just rumor?
Author:  jason sob [ Fri Mar 12, 2004 10:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: From the Loop
In addition to the issues with the town of silver plum, I was told that last year the railroad was close to not having a water supply for the loco's. Part of the issues caused by the drought. Not really part of the cussent issue, but I thought it to be fairly interesting.
What does CHS expect to gain from this? Wait till they see the bids other operators give them! After all, they will include the costs of a full set of operational equipment
I wonder if Mr. Ashbey would move his equipment out to the "Gorge"......all he would need is a third rail down the line. I wonder what those shays would sound like with the exhaust echoing off the canyon walls.........

jasonsobczynski@yahoo.com
Author:  Shane Schabow [ Fri Mar 12, 2004 11:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: From the Loop
Frankly, I think that those citizens of Silver Plume need to wake up and observe how many tourists stop in their town, SPEND MONEY, and ride the railroad. Their town may very well have folded if the railroad had not been there the past 30 years to attract some money-spending tourists, looking for the flavor of the mountains, and finding it both in the town and the railroad. My family and I have walked around Silver Plume FOR THE SOLE REASON that we were there to ride the train!!
Also, I agree with Steve, that the current people at CHS need to be replaced with ones who actually know what they are doing, or enlightened with what repercussions may follow if things continue as they are.

Steve, if there is ANYTHING myself or anyone else can do, tell us. This railroad does not deserve to die when it has made it through so much, and become such a valuable historical asset to Coloroado.

Shane Schabow, life-long GLRR fan

dcs310@comcast.net
Author:  dave [ Sat Mar 13, 2004 8:05 am ]
Post subject:  Silver Plume
Silver Plume is a red herring. They lack the political clout to persuade the state to shut down one of its most popular attractions. I wonder who would foot the bill for operating its water system without GLR - the largest consumer. Remember that a lot of capital investment was made in the town supply for a microbrewery which since unfortunately folded.

If one were to want to move away from civilization, wouldn't within 500 yards of a major interstate highway be a poor choice? WHAT are they thinking?

I hear the Creede branch would love to have a tourist railroad running up to town through Wagon Wheel Gap.

dave



irondave@bellsouth.net
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