Been informed by a Stewartstown RR employee that, in spite of the announcements earlier, plans are proceeding for what COULD be the final excursions: April 9 and 10 (Good Friday and Easter Saturday) Easter Bunny Express trips, at 11 am, 1 pm, and 3 pm.

Barring any resusication of the current operation or a new operator, or any chartered "farewell" trips by an NRHS chapter, this could be the final runs.

LNER4472-NOSPAM-@bcpl.net

The previous thread on the Stewartstown had some interesting ideas about preventing the demise of this last authentic farmers' railroad, which I'd like to see expanded, hopefully minus the "it's impossible" doom and gloom of the usual dismal doubters.

First, it seems sure that some local person who lives in the area must take up the cause. Being some 500 miles away with little vacation and little time off, it certainly won't be me. Are there current Stewartstown employees who might fill this role? If not, who?

Second, what would be the best ownership scenario? York County already owns the moribund Northern Central and may not be amenable to further acquisitions. Public ownership, at least for the present, might spark the trails advocates to try to clear the roadbed of those nasty old tracks, and public officials might be easily swayed by them. Has George Hart ever discussed what might happen after he is no longer able to run it, or after his demise? Would a private non-profit organization be the best to save and maintain it?

Would it be best to remain a common carrier or not, at least on paper?

I can certainly understand the insurance reasons that have suspended operations. The goal now, it seems, should be to keep the property intact and the buildings from falling down or burning.

Given their close proximity, I wonder if some in the Ma & Pa group might take up the cause? While their own project might be seen as "competition", they obviously understand what historic preservation is about, having concentrated on saving the historic village of Muddy Creek Forks while resisting the urge to play train.

Might a motorcar group be able to utilize the tracks without the present Stewartstown management being held liable? Such operation probably would not include the public at the moment, due to insurance, but possibly could include public rides if the insurance crisis eases. Motorcar groups might keep culverts clean and do minor trackwork, as well as keeping an eye on the property. This has worked well elsewhere, on the Adirondack Scenic, the former Wolfeboro RR, etc.. Is there a Friends group?

Are there any potential freight shippers at all, assuming the connecting Northern Central might find an operator? I realize the track is a bit light for many of today's heavy freight cars.

And lastly, what might be the value of the railroad in dollars and how is it figured? Scrap value, land value, etc..

If money is owed to other railroads for long-ago demurrage charges, might they write it off on their taxes? Would they have done so already?

Given its relative intactness as a historic property, I think the Stewartstown has a lot of potential to recreate the past, which could only be faked at most other sites. There is lots on knowledge on this forum and I hope we can generate some ideas that might help prevent this little railroad's demise.

http://www.fieldtrip.com/pa/79932936.htm
ryarger@rypn.org

> The previous thread on the Stewartstown had
> some interesting ideas about preventing the
> demise of this last authentic farmers'
> railroad, which I'd like to see expanded,
> hopefully minus the "it's
> impossible" doom and gloom of the usual
> dismal doubters.

Well, Bob, I don't know quite how to respond--I'm afraid that if I raise some of the issues to be overcome you'll write me off as a dismal doubter.

A few factors you should consider. The rail is certainly, positively too light for contemporary freight service, nor is there any real prospect of traffic, even assuming York County named an operator for the NCRR, which it seems in no hurry to do.

As to the value of the property--I do not know how wide their right of way is, or if they own it outright vs. having easments only. Land they do own outright could be surprisingly valuable--as Sandy pointed out, New Freedom is a pretty hot market for ex-urban bedroom development. So acquisition costs on the basis of land alone might possibly be substantial. I don't know, but someone would need to find out.

Excluding the intervention of a wealthy hobbyist, the best models are probably: 1. a coalition of private investors a la Strasburg in the early days. 2. A speeder group leasing from the current management (and the first lease payment would have to be structured so as to retire the company's debts or at least placate the creditors, so it would not be cheap). 3. State purchase and railbanking of the ROW with lease to a speeder or shortline tourist operator a la Walkersville Southern.

Now, what're the difficulties? For the coalition of private investors, they would need to consider the market. Good points--proximity to Harrisburg, Baltimore and DC adjacent to I-83. Bad points--close competitors for the (static to shrinking) tourist railroad experience dollar in Strasburg, M&H, Walkersville Southern, Gettysburg, EBT, WMSRR. It is a crowded market already. Also, the physical plant is, quite simply, clapped out--probably on par with Strasburg in the earliest days, maybe a little better.

For the speeder group--a lease from the current management would be expensive when track is avialable to run speeders on essentially for free in Muddy Creek Forks and Walkersville (which is very speeder-friendly).

For the State/County purchase and lease back model--given York's experience with the NCRR it's hard to see them having much interest in the Stewartstown as a railroad, so this is probably a nonstarter unless the line is acquired specifically to become a side extension to the NCRR rail trail, not as a functioning railroad. It's too bad, becuase Walkersville has proven that the "state purchase-dollar a year lease to an operator" model can make a fine little homey tourist railroad financially feasible.

I do not mean to be a dismal doubter. But these are the facts on the ground that any plan must take account of. If someone can come up with a plan that makes sense in light of these facts and others I may not have thought of, I for one am willing to invest time and money both. But I can't think of a plan that gets around these facts myself.

eledbetter@rypn.org

Raising important issues is not dismal doubting, just dealing with reality. I'm well aware that saving the Stewartstown would be difficult, but so were many other less credible projects, which did happen. With the country and economy in such a mess, this is a bad time for this to happen. Right now, I'm just looking for ways to fend off scrappers and developers, so the line could come back to life later. Is there a responsible motorcar group in the area that might consider adopting maintenance in exchange for the right to track usage? If not, could one be brought together? It seems that some form of rail-borne activity should take place on a regular basis to help ward off NIMBYism, both on the Stewartstown and Northern Central, even if only trackman's motorcars.

As I understand it, the Stewartstown is still a common carrier. What to do if abandonment is applied for with the STB? From the MTM experience in Minnesota, track that is officially abandoned, but still intact, can have local ordinances slapped on it that essentially prevent its practical use.

What does Stewartstown think of its hometown railroad? Are any locals in favor of keeping it? I feel strongly that someone in the area must take up the cause for it to happen, lest it be seen politically as outsiders meddling in local affairs.

> Well, Bob, I don't know quite how to
> respond--I'm afraid that if I raise some of
> the issues to be overcome you'll write me
> off as a dismal doubter.

> A few factors you should consider. The rail
> is certainly, positively too light for
> contemporary freight service, nor is there
> any real prospect of traffic, even assuming
> York County named an operator for the NCRR,
> which it seems in no hurry to do.

> As to the value of the property--I do not
> know how wide their right of way is, or if
> they own it outright vs. having easments
> only. Land they do own outright could be
> surprisingly valuable--as Sandy pointed out,
> New Freedom is a pretty hot market for
> ex-urban bedroom development. So acquisition
> costs on the basis of land alone might
> possibly be substantial. I don't know, but
> someone would need to find out.

> Excluding the intervention of a wealthy
> hobbyist, the best models are probably: 1. a
> coalition of private investors a la
> Strasburg in the early days. 2. A speeder
> group leasing from the current management
> (and the first lease payment would have to
> be structured so as to retire the company's
> debts or at least placate the creditors, so
> it would not be cheap). 3. State purchase
> and railbanking of the ROW with lease to a
> speeder or shortline tourist operator a la
> Walkersville Southern.

> Now, what're the difficulties? For the
> coalition of private investors, they would
> need to consider the market. Good
> points--proximity to Harrisburg, Baltimore
> and DC adjacent to I-83. Bad points--close
> competitors for the (static to shrinking)
> tourist railroad experience dollar in
> Strasburg, M&H, Walkersville Southern,
> Gettysburg, EBT, WMSRR. It is a crowded
> market already. Also, the physical plant is,
> quite simply, clapped out--probably on par
> with Strasburg in the earliest days, maybe a
> little better.

> For the speeder group--a lease from the
> current management would be expensive when
> track is avialable to run speeders on
> essentially for free in Muddy Creek Forks
> and Walkersville (which is very
> speeder-friendly).

> For the State/County purchase and lease back
> model--given York's experience with the NCRR
> it's hard to see them having much interest
> in the Stewartstown as a railroad, so this
> is probably a nonstarter unless the line is
> acquired specifically to become a side
> extension to the NCRR rail trail, not as a
> functioning railroad. It's too bad, becuase
> Walkersville has proven that the "state
> purchase-dollar a year lease to an
> operator" model can make a fine little
> homey tourist railroad financially feasible.

> I do not mean to be a dismal doubter. But
> these are the facts on the ground that any
> plan must take account of. If someone can
> come up with a plan that makes sense in
> light of these facts and others I may not
> have thought of, I for one am willing to
> invest time and money both. But I can't
> think of a plan that gets around these facts
> myself.


ryarger@rypn.org

> A few factors you should consider. The rail
> is certainly, positively too light for
> contemporary freight service, nor is there
> any real prospect of traffic, even assuming
> York County named an operator for the NCRR,
> which it seems in no hurry to do.

> As to the value of the property--I do not
> know how wide their right of way is, or if
> they own it outright vs. having easments
> only. Land they do own outright could be
> surprisingly valuable--as Sandy pointed out,
> New Freedom is a pretty hot market for
> ex-urban bedroom development. So acquisition
> costs on the basis of land alone might
> possibly be substantial. I don't know, but
> someone would need to find out.

> Excluding the intervention of a wealthy
> hobbyist, the best models are probably: 1. a
> coalition of private investors a la
> Strasburg in the early days. 2. A speeder
> group leasing from the current management
> (and the first lease payment would have to
> be structured so as to retire the company's
> debts or at least placate the creditors, so
> it would not be cheap). 3. State purchase
> and railbanking of the ROW with lease to a
> speeder or shortline tourist operator a la
> Walkersville Southern.

Given the factors above, the RR could become a wholly owned subsidiary of a 501c3 (assuming there's no bidding war).

A fact that is in a railroad's favor is that Chapter 7 is not an option for irate creditors-if overdue bills are an issue.

If a 501c3 took over- assuming there's ROW, good equipment and enough passenger revenue to sustain the road it could survive.

Any freight business would be outside the scope of a non-profit-but can be reported as unrelated business income-subject to tax.



superheater@rrmail.com

> First, it seems sure that some local person
> who lives in the area must take up the
> cause. Being some 500 miles away with little
> vacation and little time off, it certainly
> won't be me. Are there current Stewartstown
> employees who might fill this role? If not,
> who?

*RUMORS (and that's the best they are) indicate that at least *some* exploratory or pre-emptive action is being taken by current/past volunteers. I am in no position to know whether these volunteers have serious plans or are pie-in-the-sky dreamers; the ones I have spoken with seem somewhat resigned to the inevitable, albeit somewhat heartbroken.

> Second, what would be the best ownership
> scenario? York County already owns the
> moribund Northern Central and may not be
> amenable to further acquisitions. Public
> ownership, at least for the present, might
> spark the trails advocates to try to clear
> the roadbed of those nasty old tracks, and
> public officials might be easily swayed by
> them. Has George Hart ever discussed what
> might happen after he is no longer able to
> run it, or after his demise? Would a private
> non-profit organization be the best to save
> and maintain it?

*Haven spoken with people supposedly "in the know", I have been told that Hart's legal affairs are in very good order--if he had been run over by a streetcar ten years ago, everything would have found a good home, or at least been set on the road for making the best of the situation.

Approaching the county ownership scenario, I can suggest the following: the current Northern Central joint trail/railroad can be considered a success as a trail, but not so as a railroad. In my opinion, the railroad aspect failed, but not so badly as to make any railroad resurrection a political minefield. It's not as if, say, the county spent $50 million laying a streetcar line that only sees 200 riders a day. Moreover, there already exists an authority to oversee and maintain the existing trail; adding a few more miles of responsibility, whether it be a new trail or simply rail-banking, is not that much more to do.

> Would it be best to remain a common carrier
> or not, at least on paper?

*Strictly an opinion, no, at least not unless a large rail revenue source can be identified. And given that the Stewartstown now represents an awkward appendage to a dead-end spur originating from a second-rate rail city (York), that ain't happening. From a purely economics standpoint, the line probably should have died in 1972.

> I can certainly understand the insurance
> reasons that have suspended operations. The
> goal now, it seems, should be to keep the
> property intact and the buildings from
> falling down or burning.

*Too late without some "angel"--as reported already, the ceiling has collapsed upon the "time-capsule" office space in the Stewartstown depot. I have been lobbying to get FEBT-style "commandos" to enter the building with tarps for close to two years; it hasn't happened. That somewhat modern depot needs as much emergency stabilization as most of the EBT buildings needed.

> Given their close proximity, I wonder if
> some in the Ma & Pa group might take up
> the cause? While their own project might be
> seen as "competition", they
> obviously understand what historic
> preservation is about, having concentrated
> on saving the historic village of Muddy
> Creek Forks while resisting the urge to play
> train.

*Cynic in me says they won't, because it ain't Ma & Pa--a loyalty right up there with PRR and Colorado narrow gauge for foamers. However, since the Ma & Pa group(s) and the county have already worked together in a fashion, I could certainly see some overlap developing, and definitely some worthwhile assistance and cooperation, both mechanical and logistical.

> Might a motorcar group be able to utilize
> the tracks without the present Stewartstown
> management being held liable? Such operation
> probably would not include the public at the
> moment, due to insurance, but possibly could
> include public rides if the insurance crisis
> eases. Motorcar groups might keep culverts
> clean and do minor trackwork, as well as
> keeping an eye on the property. This has
> worked well elsewhere, on the Adirondack
> Scenic, the former Wolfeboro RR, etc.. Is
> there a Friends group?

*[Restrains incredulous laughter, then thinks.....] Now, let's rethink the models a bit....... how about one of those Edwards motor car rebuilds? Gee, this is getting more like the "Toonerville Trolley" every time I turn around.......

> Are there any potential freight shippers at
> all, assuming the connecting Northern
> Central might find an operator? I realize
> the track is a bit light for many of today's
> heavy freight cars.

*Bugger that. The RR has one of about 25 cast-iron bridges in existence, a notable and worthwhile preservation candidate in its own right. I'm actually impressed they could get anything above a 40-foot boxcar over that line. "Light" doesn't begin to describe it. Although the Strasburg started out with similar track conditions, I understand......

> And lastly, what might be the value of the
> railroad in dollars and how is it figured?
> Scrap value, land value, etc..

*Scrap prices are high right now. Land prices are worse, as people flee the high taxes of neighboring Maryland.

> If money is owed to other railroads for
> long-ago demurrage charges, might they write
> it off on their taxes? Would they have done
> so already?

*I am not a lawyer..............

> Given its relative intactness as a historic
> property, I think the Stewartstown has a lot
> of potential to recreate the past, which
> could only be faked at most other sites.
> There is lots on knowledge on this forum and
> I hope we can generate some ideas that might
> help prevent this little railroad's demise.

*My opinion: The line does indeed pack a whalloping amount of character. However, that character is not expressed in Victorian stations with gingerbread, or historic districts surrounding the terminals, or spectacular scenery. Rather, it's expressed by a serpentine rail line winding its way back and forth across the countryside, with oddball equipment running from an oddball town far enough off the beaten path to have been forgotten about. In a sense, it's exactly like Rowland Emett's cartoon "Far Twittering & Oyster Railway", or Fallberg's "Fiddletown & Copperopolis", or Fox's "Toonerville Trolley". The character can be initially off-putting but very heartwarming and lovable once you get to know it--like the town eccentric or your Crazy Aunt Maude or the recluse with 47 cats. The danger in an exercise like this is, how many people are going to get past their first impressions to get to lnow Crazy Ol' Stewartstown Railroad and love her? It's far easier to explain and expose the charms and rarity of the EBT than it is a quixotic operation like the Stewartstown.


LNER4472-NOSPAM-@bcpl.net

Anyone have some photos of the collapsed roof on the Stewartstown depot? Also, I note most of the structures were nominated for the state and national registers. Were those designations ever completed?

ryarger@rypn.org

> Anyone have some photos of the collapsed
> roof on the Stewartstown depot? Also, I note
> most of the structures were nominated for
> the state and national registers. Were those
> designations ever completed?

The depot roof did not collaps only one eve is sagging, I was just there last weekend doing damage controle on the main roof and I will be back next week to shure up the sagging eve. then we will talk shingles.

dirc183@dejazzd.com

Also, I note
> most of the structures were nominated for
> the state and national registers. Were those
> designations ever completed?

Yes, they were--all are currently listed on the Register for York County.


eledbetter@rypn.org

> Anyone have some photos of the collapsed
> roof on the Stewartstown depot?

NOT the ROOF.........

the CEILING in the main agent's office. The roof is leaking like a colander. The "time capsule" of the agent's office and waiting room is being ruined by water and falling debris.

[Shameless Plug: There's a "before" picture on page 10 of my book "Train Stations".....]

LNER4472-NOSPAM-@bcpl.net