The current thread concerning the length of various tourist railroads reminds me of a question I have pondered for a while: "What is the optimum length of ride for a tourist railroad?"

I was once approached by a visitor who asked how long the ride was. At the time, we didn't have much track, and I said, "About 20 minutes." To this he replied, "OK, I'll go." I wondered afterward what his response would have been had I said "five minutes" or if I had said "an hour." Evidently "twenty minutes" was in the time range he was seeking.

Plainly the answer to this question depends a lot on the scenery. Twenty minutes spent having pine trees brush the sides of the car is different than twenty minutes on the D&S High Line. Other factors include how many children accompany the visitor, etc.

The question sort of boils down to: If you could offer 0.5, 1.0, 1.5, 2.0, (etc) hour rides, but not all of these, for which trip length would you aim, assuming average scenery and average riders?

Thanks!
-John

mcnamara@theworld.com

> The question sort of boils down to: If you
> could offer 0.5, 1.0, 1.5, 2.0, (etc) hour
> rides, but not all of these, for which trip
> length would you aim, assuming average
> scenery and average riders?

The Puffing Billy Steam Railway,near Melbourne Australia runs through rather scenic country with options of doing trips from our main Belgrave terminus that are:
(a) 30 minutes each way - Menzies Creek where there isn't a lot to do/see other than visit the tea room on the platform or our static museum of locos. Typical schedules allow either a 5 minute, 30 minute of 1 hour lay-over. This station is basically a crossing point for trains on our Belgrave-Lakeside service.
(b) 60 minutes each way - Lakeside station where there is a park with two lakes, picnic shelters, a cafe, water slide and a wading pool in season, a number of signposted walks, etc - depending upon the season this option is available on between 2 and 6 departures daily. The possible layover time varies from one hour upwards.
(c) 2 hours each way - Gembrook a small country town with a park/picnic facilities near our station, a number of craft shops, a typical aussie pub with a very good dining room, etc. This option is only available on our 10.30am departure most days of the year (we run 2 gembrook tips on about 20 days a year. We allow a 90 to 120 minute layover.

Our experience is that out of a total ridership of 245,000 pa;
(a) Menzies Creek is the destination only for one way organised coach groups on a tight schedule and trying to cram in as many experiences as possible into a day outing (58,000 pax pa)and a handful of other passengers

(b) Lakeside is the 'ideal' choice for family groups with kids, school groups, club outings, etc (130,000)

(c) Gembrook passengers (21,000 pa) tend to be couples travelling without kids

(d)People turning up at outstations to do trips (usually passing trade) number about 16,000.

(e)The balance (20,000) are patrons on special value-add products such as out Night train, Day out with Thomas the Tank engine events, etc.

Based on the above, if we couldn't provide multiple options, I'd aim for a 1 hour one-way ride provided there is something worthwhile at the destination or a one hour out-and-back journey if there is nothing at the destination.


Puffing Billy Steam Railway, Australia
chairman@pbr.org.au

General dissucion on the foot plate of D&GV no3 one day resulted in the idea that after about 45 minutes the thrill of a train ride wears off. At which point you got to take it up with something else, scenery, or something exceptional (the hard core railfan is a little different though).

At Cass there are generaly 2 types.

Group A is mom and dad and kids, or seniors or any general tourist. They like the 2 hour Whittaker trip, they go on the tour during the lay over, and then they go back down the mountain hit the store and then go find more tourist things to do.

Group B take the Bald Knob train all 5 hours of it. They either come back and complain about how long it is, or they are the hard core railfan type, and in some cases they are your average tourist that have come to get the full exprince. Either way most of these people (with some exception)head straight for the parking lot when the train gets back.

I really think the key to a good operation is to have a short trip with decent (it doesn't have to be D&S style but not back alleys either)scenery and something to do at one or both ends (real museum, restraunts, etc.).
From my point of view the key to a tourist railroad is pleasing the tourist both on and off the train. They don't drive over an hour each way just to get on the train, ride, get off and drive home.


btrue@vt.edu

Another good factor is a well-written mile-by-mile guide (or narrator) to point out the interesting features along the way. This is what we've been discussing over on the NGDF board about the books for the D&S and C&TS.

How wonderful to see a posting from down under - thanks.

Puffing Billy actually runs through very pleasant, attractive country - not like the scrub pines and kudzu and rears of junkyards we see in the USA.

If you are through with Linc would you please send him back?

dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

I think it depends on several factors. Some people want a quick sample, and a short round trip of less than an hour is good. I've heard people complain about the slow speeds at Cass, so speed may be a factor. I've also heard people grumble about the length of the trip, so the day-long Silverton or Chama experience may not be for them.

There is also a difference whether the attraction is a "museum" or a "tourist railroad." For instance, at the WW&F Railway Museum, visitors don't seem to mind if the train crew suggests they walk a several hundred yards to see the track gang in action. However, a guided tour through the carbarn to inspect the chicken coops at a trolley museum may wear thin pretty quickly. On the other hand, I've seen people become impatient while the engine is run around the train out in the middle of nowhere, too. However, people are fascinated to watch an engine turned on a turntable or even on a wye.

Another factor is whether there are kids and how old they are. Once the initial fascination with the train ride is over, smaller kids can be pretty cranky if the ride is more than an hour. Older kids can sometimes amuse themselves. Some kind of entertainment (but NOT an accordion, please) helps while the time away.

Bottom line for most tourists, I think, is getting back in under an hour, whether the train goes 10 mph or 35.

K4s1361@hotmail.com

John -

this is a great question, one which our Museum has called an open membership meeting to discuss.

IMHO - the family visitor is looking for a 90 minute to 2 hour experience in total on your site. This includes the ride, visit, giftshop, toliet - everything. (About the same length as a movie). It seems the ideal ride, assuming a normal museum type of trip, would be around 45 minutes to an hour. That leaves 30 minutes to visit the rest of the collection and 15-30 minutes to see the videos, giftshop, etc.

Now - for a died in the wool railfan like me - who doesn't really even need to see another museum - 1000 miles of heavy, steep graded steam powered railroad. But, you'll not be serving your primary target - Mom/Dad or Grandma/Grandpa and the kids.

Jim



Pacific SW Railway Museum
jim@sdrm.org

I agree. If you looking to make money, you have to cater to where most most if it comes from - the family day trip.

On the other hand, to please those more in the railfan camp, a Railfan Day or Weekend would hit all the bases for your operation. Offer more trips / special operating equipment. At Clark's Trading Post in NH, they do just that. During the summer its the usual 20-25 minute ride. Railroad Days weekend in Sept offers more for the railfan. They used to do a Steam Weekend where in addition to the locomotives, they fired up their road rollers and Bucyrus Erie shovel.

At the Alder Gulch Shortline (30" gauge) between Virginia City and Nevada City Montana, the steam train operation operate 5 roundtrips over a 1.5 mile run (approximately 20 minutes, including wyeing the train). The steam train runs on weekends, with a gas mechanical (converted track speeder frames) operating daily during the week.

Layover at either end ranges from 15 to 30 minutes, with the following departure approximately 1 hour 45 minutes. The gas-mechanical runs faster headways (one hour to next departure). Either station has displays, food service and other entertainments. The Virginia City station has a gift shop and ticket office. Ticket sales at the Nevada City end are held by the train conductor before departure.

I believe that most ticket sales are for roundtrips, though there are some one-way fares (people walk back to the originating station or are picked up with others at the other end).

Michael Seitz
Missoula MT


Alder Gulch Shortline/Virginia City Montana
mikefrommontana@juno.com

> not like the
> scrub pines and kudzu and rears of junkyards
> we see in the USA.
> dave

Come ride the WP&YR at Skagway Alaska. An 80 mile round trip on grades up to 4% through some of the most spectacular scenery in the world. Definitely not "scrub pines and kudzu and rears of junkyards". The route climbs from sea level to ~2900 ft in about 25 miles. Steam train on saturdays, diesels during the week. Very few complaints about the length of the trip. Granted, most of the passengers are off cruise ships so the day trip on the WP&YR is not a problem in terms of distance or time. The train picks them up and drops them off at the ship.

Mike

mike211@yknet.ca

Unfortunately getting TO the WP&Y to enjoy the ride and scenery is a bit of a trek for me right now. I would very much like to visit some day.

And, we have some nice rides in the lower 48 like D&S, Royal Gorge, the incredible Georgetown Loop just to mention the Coloradan scenic spectales.

But it does bring to mind another valuable criteria - be where the tourists are.

dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

As evidenced by most comments on this board and our experience, 90 minutes, with a one-hour round trip ride works best with families. These are our core customers, and yes, the kids do determine the length of the ride.

This length of ride also provides a decent turnover in available seats. Another factor is the length of time between trips, as many visitors don't like wait more than an hour before the next train goes out.

Jack

East Troy Electric Railroad
jftrolley@aol.com

We have discussed this at the Western Railway Museum and since we have more track than equipment to run on it; we have divided it into a short street car loop and a longer Interurban ride.

However, we are finding that once people have taken the short ride, they almost always stay to ride the next long trip.

After opening the next section of electricifacion
we may have to make changes. Operations are something that are in flux.

ted_miles@nps.gov

I'm pretty sure Linc is extracting himself next week. I was down with him and the guys from Puffing Billy for two weeks as well. Just got home from a very nice tour of Vic, AU

Will

> How wonderful to see a posting from down
> under - thanks.

> Puffing Billy actually runs through very
> pleasant, attractive country - not like the
> scrub pines and kudzu and rears of junkyards
> we see in the USA.

> If you are through with Linc would you
> please send him back?

> dave


http://www.BYCX.com
loco@hoghead.com

> If you are through with Linc would you
> please send him back?

> dave

He is on a plane heading your way today. I don't think he wanted to leave and we certainly will miss him!


Puffing Billy Steam Railway, Australia
chairman@pbr.org.au